External Oil Pump

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Krooser

Krooser

Building Chinese Free Engines since 1959...
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Has anyone run an external oil pump on a small block.

I'm asking because Melling has cheapened their castings and substituted PM gears for their billet gears in most of their oil pumps.

I recently sold a small block pump that was from 2003-ish and the casting was much better than the newer casting I have on the shelf.

I also have the junk pump that was in my race motor...it is from 1993 and also is a much better design.

I'm thinking if using a gear drive on this refreshed race motor and they can introduce harmonics into the cam and crank that could affect a pump hanging down from the block.

A belt drive oil pump may be a better answer.

I could go dry sump but I don't have the cash and don't need all that extra weight of a tank and hoses.
 
"PM" I assume you mean pot metal? I seriously doubt that, but I have no doubt they have cheapened things up. Pot metal oil pump gears wouldn't last five minutes.
 
Powdered metal has very similar properties to forgings when properly processed. Many current production components are made of powdered metal including connecting rods. 65'
 
There have been a bunch of online posts and pix of SBC pumps with split rotors in their Melling pumps since they switched to powdered metal bits.

I have no issues with PM.rods for the most part. Some early Gen3 Hemis had broken rods but the design changed a bit with the Eagle engine and I believe they are Ok now. We build my kids SBC b mod motor with PM LT1 rods...cheap and effective.
 
Krooser said:
There have been a bunch of online posts and pix of SBC pumps with split rotors in their Melling pumps since they switched to powdered metal bits.

I have no issues with PM.rods for the most part. Some early Gen3 Hemis had broken rods but the design changed a bit with the Eagle engine and I believe they are Ok now. We build my kids SBC b mod motor with PM LT1 rods...cheap and effective.
Click to expand...

You may or may not remember, but when most everybody first went to powdered metal rods, there were a LOT of failures.
 
RustyRatRod said:
You may or may not remember, but when most everybody first went to powdered metal rods, there were a LOT of failures.
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You are correct sir...

I've done some research since my earlier post about external pumps....I get the impression that simple is better so I have ditched that idea...
 
Krooser said:
You are correct sir...

I've done some research since my earlier post about external pumps....I get the impression that simple is better so I have ditched that idea...
Click to expand...


The biggest benefit to the external pump is what you can do with the pan and pickup when the pump isn’t there.

I looked at it more than once, and I decided if I was going to do the external pump I’d just do a dry sump.

If the DS isn’t legal but the external wet sump is its probably worth it in corner turning car.
 
yellow rose said:
The biggest benefit to the external pump is what you can do with the pan and pickup when the pump isn’t there.

I looked at it more than once, and I decided if I was going to do the external pump I’d just do a dry sump.

If new the external pump is $900.00 plus. Likely have another $200+ in accessories.

Dry sump would be double that plus.

More than anything I can't afford all that extra weight up front since I already have iron head's.

Just trying to get a billet proof oiling system. Might look at the Schumann pumps...

If the DS isn’t legal but the external wet sump is its probably worth it in corner turning car.
Click to expand...
 

You can also look into the Titan pumps. I’ve used them in customer stuff and it’s very nice. Very very nice.
 
y r said

You should be looking at the Isahara-Johnson crank scraper even if you’re not shifting at 8k or higher.
 
I've also been considering an external pump (wet sump). I wonder how much benefit it offers in terms of pan design....is a deep pan used because of the pump/pickup, or is the pan gonna be deep regardless?

The Peterson site had a good 'blog'* about external pumps and points out the benefit over a dry sump is you are not dealing with all the vacuum-related issues that exist in a dry sump. Plus, of course, the cost.

I also like the way you no longer have to worry about the pickup tube and how it attaches to the pump.


*I promise that's the first time I have ever used that word, and it will be the last if I have any say in the matter.
 
gregcon said:
I've also been considering an external pump (wet sump). I wonder how much benefit it offers in terms of pan design....is a deep pan used because of the pump/pickup, or is the pan gonna be deep regardless?

The Peterson site had a good 'blog'* about external pumps and points out the benefit over a dry sump is you are not dealing with all the vacuum-related issues that exist in a dry sump. Plus, of course, the cost.

I also like the way you no longer have to worry about the pickup tube and how it attaches to the pump.


*I promise that's the first time I have ever used that word, and it will be the last if I have any say in the matter.
Click to expand...
 
Let me try this again since I botched the above post.

The external wet sump does exactly what you said. You can do things with the pickup that even a swinging pickup can’t do. You can also baffle the pickup in different ways with the external pump.

And the actual pickup tube (the hose on the external pump can be sized much larger because you don’t have the space limits you have with a wet sump system.

The bigger the hose or tube on the suction side the better. The less bends the better.

Im not sure why the blog was concerned with vacuum related issues, because the greater the depression in the pan, the greater power potential you have. Not only from oil control, but because you can use rings with very thin cross sections and very little radial tension.
 
OK....my late night browsing is coming back to me.

Here's the article I recalled; it mentions some pro's and con's of external pumps. I don't plan to run a vac pump so I'm not gonna worry about that part.
Wet Sump Oiling - Rocket Industries


I like the Peterson pump...looks like a nice piece.
 
If you don't like the Melling try a Sealed Power or other brand.
 
is a sp casting differentthan melling
trw used to be a long long time ago
who knows who makes what now
 
Wyrmrider said:
is a sp casting differentthan melling
trw used to be a long long time ago
who knows who makes what now
Click to expand...
Ya, what ever happened to TRW. We sold a lot of their engine and chassis parts back in the 70's. Always top notch.
 
I know those comments are not directed at me, but I don't have an issue with the Melling pump...if anything my debate is internal or external.

I called Peterson, they said their 04-1002 'high volume' pump would be the one to use for a SBM that will see some RPM.
 
I've been wondering...if you use an external pump, what do you do about the distributor gear? The oil pump acts as a lower bearing...so once it's gone, do you make a bearing up or ?
 
kevko oil pump pickup.jpg
gregcon said:
I've also been considering an external pump (wet sump). I wonder how much benefit it offers in terms of pan design....is a deep pan used because of the pump/pickup, or is the pan gonna be deep regardless?

The Peterson site had a good 'blog'* about external pumps and points out the benefit over a dry sump is you are not dealing with all the vacuum-related issues that exist in a dry sump. Plus, of course, the cost.

I also like the way you no longer have to worry about the pickup tube and how it attaches to the pump.


*I promise that's the first time I have ever used that word, and it will be the last if I have any say in the matter.
Click to expand...
My Kevko pickup bolts to the pump replacing the pump cover... bulletproof.
 
We got our mods directly from Mullen to start with
I have a drill that has a shaft welded to it
and then a reamer to smooth out the rough bore...

from the Oil Mod stickie Duane around post 400 and on

Sanborn was a very successful sbm racer who shared in much detail how he got the engine to live. He too was an engineer.
I had Cometic gaskets design Mls head gaskets for the sbm with the water passages modified to Sanborns design.
Anyone on this forum can now buy them.

and
Agreed with all but your last paragraph. If you can, try to get a copy of the Larry Atherton book. It explains both recommended modification and explains the velocity issue.

The book goes into detail about the crossover tube and the"proper" way to install it. It is designed to slow the oil when using wet lifters only.
The designer of that crossover was Bob Mullen, a highly respected member of the society of automotive engineers, and the inventer of the W2 head. The crossover method was designed to slow velocity
While still have all the lifter oil leaks. Those leaks are what causes the issue. The Chrysler method is to cut the leaks with a system that resembles Gregcons sketch. Both methods are designed to fix the same problem. One with the leaks, one without.
It is Sanborns method of front oiling that is unique. Even his method uses wet lifters but highly restricted.
The book claims that the crossover method was tested reliable to 10,000 rpm and was used in Bob Gliddens pro stock car. The drawback to the crossover is it is difficult to implement correctly.
 
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