FABO Small Block header IDEA*

[Prine]

So.......last night (technically this morning) at 2:15am I awoke from a strange dream...I dreamed I was bolting up a set of headers in a Dart from above the fender....( I KNOW !!)....the headers were nice too. Thick 3/8" inch flanges, 2" Primaries, O2 sensor bungs and (1) Bolt V-Band Clamps at the collector to attach the head pipes.

I jumped out of bed and ran into the garage to draw up my idea on a piece of paper before the vision eluded me.

Well this morning (actual daylight) I went into the garage to brainstorm....I have some 2" 14ga mandrel bends, some 2.5" too.

I am aware that Harold, associated with Spitfire, makes headers for mopars' that are based on a Tri-Y design, but my idea differs in a few aspects.

I am interested in sharing my idea with the FABO community, and maybe possibly even Branding my header concept FABO Headers....

I need a guinea pig or two...that are interested in A-body Headers, with Manifold like seal, and fit...and can possibly throw some R&D investment money my way to purchase stuff like flanges, pipe bends, o2 sensor bungs, and V-band clamps....so I can do a cost analysis.

The prototype headers once completed would go on to the prospective investors, no other charges, for fitment testing and review....and after the review process to keep forever....maybe serialized as Header Set 00001/00002/00003 and so on.

I have a TiG Welder and metal working tools, and intend to weld everything with the TiG process to keep the b.b's and slag non existant.

I would like to further go on, and offer my design in both Mild Steel, and T304 Stainless also....might even go the Ceramic Coat route...if desired.

Please comment on my idea and lets kick this around.

 

[moparsegura]

:tongue::yawinkle:I can't offer any funds, but when you get a set send them to me, I'll tell ya how the work

 

[blackace]

Well if you can build a nice set of headers, I'd be interested. I would give some money for R&D. I think a nice production properly fit headers are LONG overdue for A Body Mopars. Atleast ones that don't cost an arm and a leg. I hope. LOL!!!

I have actually thought taking my set of Hooker Comps and cutting them up to make them fit like TTI's.

 

[Prine]

lol....

Investors will be the only ones who will recieve anything till I get a workable prototype set to base off of.

 

[Prine]

I think my dream came about because I was talking with my cousin on phone last week about what a PITA it is to install Heddman A-Body Headers without a cherry picker to lift the engine up off the mounts in the garage and installing them from the underside....that and remembering that once I GOT the freggin headers on...it was like 15 minutes into test driving it before I flat spotted the bottom of the driver side header on a dip....and I went over it carefully.....and then after that...it was like a week or two before I blew out a gasket with their cheap 1/4" Flanges...I ended up doubling exhaust gaskets on each side.

After many busted knuckles, and much swearing, I decided to NEVER install headers like that on anything else.

I am doing cost planning, right at this moment...but I'll check back in on this thread...keep em' coming.

 

[mopar head]

Yeah, would`nt that be nice to walk out to your shop and make a living off of selling custom headers. But,,, I believe you would have to have some serious, investment $$$.$$$.00 to be competive with all the other vendors. Equal length tubes would be the best IMO. Tig would`nt be cost effective, big labor. Prototypes could produce a big pile of scrap in the corner, untill you perfect a design. A CNC plasma and a mandrel bender would be a must if you really want to get serious.Then some nice Jigs. And in todays economy? good luck. Not to be a bummer person, but if you did try this, I`d wish you all the sucess in the world

 

[blackace]

What about ceramic coatings? Have you thought about that? What about production if they make it that far? Would they be mandrel bent?

Obviously fitment I think would be the main concern from everyone first. LOl!!

 

[blackace]

Yeah, would`nt that be nice to walk out to your shop and make a living off of selling custom headers. But,,, I believe you would have to have some serious, investment $$$.$$$.00 to be competive with all the other vendors. Equal length tubes would be the best IMO. Tig would`nt be cost effective, big labor. Prototypes could produce a big pile of scrap in the corner, untill you perfect a design. A CNC plasma and a mandrel bender would be a must if you really want to get serious.Then some nice Jigs. And in todays economy? good luck. Not to be a bummer person, but if you did try this, I`d wish you all the sucess in the world

I don't think it would take that much of an investment to design. That would be just trial and error and mainly cost of materials. The $$$$$ would be into mass production. But I don't Mopar A Body headers would ever be mass produced. Spitfire and TTI I don't think are mass produced. I think they would be pretty much made to order. But once they are designed it wouldn't take much to produce them, time wise anyway. The main thing is that you definitely need and jig and they would have to be mig welded for faster production.

 

[Prine]

Ok here are some parts price breakdowns

2" Primary 90*'s
http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-62818268114394_2042_4481385
$20 each x 8 = $160

2.5" Exhaust Flanges/Clamps
http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-62818268114394_2042_2314661
$35.00 each x 2 = $70.00

o2 sensor bungs
http://www.urdusa.com/product_info....d=540000098&osCsid=epdvtck63aqksjnh0qp34lnv21

o2sensor bung plugs (for when not using o2 sensors/wideband)
http://www.urdusa.com/product_info.php?cPath=9_19&products_id=140000014

and the Exhaust Flanges
http://www.spdexhaust.com/pdfs/42-47_Mopar_Header_Flanges.pdf
no prices, but I will check into them, and local CNC Shops for maybe a better price.

lets hear your thoughts....

Thanks

 

[65barracudadude]

If you get it all figured out, PM me. I'll throw down some loot. I'm actually in dire need of some headers for my '65 barracuda. For a 360. Manual steering.

 

[65barracudadude]

Those are my thoughts. Come up with the whole 9 yards and PM me. Thanks.

 

[Prine]

I don't expect to GET RICH...but I would like to contribute to Pleasant Header installs, followed by good reviews and business via Word of Mouth.....Realistically, I guess the pricing would fall inbetween Spitfires' and TTi's....not at Heddman Prices for sure.

To my knowledge you cannot get headers with built in o2 sensor bungs for wideband o2 tuning, or V-band Clamps.

Successful products all start with an Idea and progress on to a drawing board somewhere....why can't that somewhere be in my head, and the drawing board be my garage?

Be Back in a Bit!

 

[Prine]

here is my rough draft drawing so you can all get an idea of what I am talking about.....

I wanted to adhere to Manifold shape and fitment, while increasing flow area, and adding features such as o2 sensor placement, and easy (1) bolt V-Band flanges for easy install/removal.

let me hear some more constructive critisism....and someone Step Right Up...

 

[Prine]

Here is a piece I had alot of involvement with (welding/fitting/fabricating):

 

[evanbrendel]

man those look good id be up for spending some cash on a good set of headers i hate leaky exhauste and have never seen with a v band clamp awsome idea id be all over that

 

[Prine]

To the concern of profitability TiG'ing each one...There is beauty/value in quality craftsmanship...and I would prefer each one to be mocked up by hand and crafted, not mass produced.

So far, as a rough estimate on time and materials, I would estimate a cost of $400 to $450 a set.

Here is TTi Small Block Mopar - A-body Headers:
http://www.magnumforce.com/store/detail.asp?ProductID=3902

I understand some people have a phobia about unequal length tubes, and the fact that there is no exhaust pulse tuning involved in my design.....so far it hasn't been brought up....but I want to defend my choice in design, with the emphasis on....decreasing manifold flow resistance (increasing the interior volume), ease of installation/removal, quality of craftsmanship, features of o2 sensor bungs/plugs, V-Band exhaust flanges, and include header bolts also.

 

[Small Block]

Prine, i was going to ask about your experience in the field of welding, fitting and fabrication...but... if you did the work on that set you are showing us i need not ask anymore about the experience. Do you have a day/night job? You would be doing this on the side? How much do you think you would need, money wise, to get started?
Small Block

 

[mopar head]

Well it appears quality will be no issue. Do you have a background in process pipefitting/welding? If you did`nt tig pipe for a living, Your a natural.

 

[green1]

I was going to ask about tuning...

 

[Prine]

Thanks...TiG Process take a steady hand. I welded ACDC arc in high school...3 years of metal shop class...MiG welded 2 years for Cummins INC. making blueprinted parts.... and during that took a 6 month local community college welding class primarily for Cummins "Ongoing Education program", but honestly my interest was to learn to TiG Stainless.

The performance gains/losses would have to be measured after a set can be fabbed up...theoretical power or gains is just that...I would like to bench mark them against a set of 273/318/ or even a set of 340 manifolds...so hopefully someone who has chassis dynoed their car with 340 manifolds would like to be guinea pig number 1 so we can get that issue laid to rest. I fully believe they will edge out long tube headers as well as ANY manifold.

 

[evanbrendel]

id gladly pay 450 a set for something of the quality you showed before

 

[fstfish66]

not knocking your ideas,,,ideas are what this country was made from,,,,

from your drawling ,to me looks more like a tubular manifold, and will not have the flow of a tubular header,,
they may possibily flow better then the factory early A exhaust manifolds,and fit as good or better,,

but last i heard the spit fire headers were half the price your talking,and the try " Y " header design produce a good amount of torque over a factory style manifold,,,

the problem with exhaust manifolds is,, besides being twisted around every thing ,produce less power beacuse of the restrictions,,

but the biggest down fall of an exhaust manifold is,, all the exhaust ports on the head are exiting in to the same tube,running in to each other not letting the gases flow,they kinda run in to each other creating a bottleing up effect,,,
headers indepentent tubes,one for each exhaust port on the head,all exiting freely,and comming together at the collector,,if the colector is made properly it wil allow the exhaust gas to fly out of the tubes creating a suction to enhance the flow like a suction,,,greating torque,,

a try " Y " would be a better desing then a log style design

just my opinion,,,

 

[camd64]

I think its a great idea! I love the v-band clamp idea, I worked on heavy equipment for years and can vouch for how well they seal. plus if you use good thick flages up to the heads you will cut down on the all to common header tick. if the power ends up in the same territory as the current header offerings I'd buy a set! another plus might be the application coverage since they look like they don't take up much space.

 

[Small Block]

I do have design questions of the ability to flow without restriction as 66 mentiond but am not out. I realize this is stil in the early concept stage. I sure do like the looks of the welding done on the one piece you have shown. Your right. You need a baseline to go off of so you can get some real #'s. I have no access to any dyno equipment but there are those here that have had their cars done and can provide this info. Maybe some will chime in. I'll ask again, what kind of funds do you feel will be needed to get this off the ground. Talk to us Prine
Small Block

 

[Prine]

Look....I'll be straight up with you guys....I'm a straight up kinda guy.
I did the online research and provided a quick pricelist of all the stuff except for the flanges...and honestly it looks like I am gonna have to use the 1.75" Primaries because a 2" pipe will not fit into the flanges....still need to source those.

Header set #1 will roughly cost $350.00 in materials to prototype a Mild Steel Set...and Header set #2 if no design changes are made will roughly cost the same....Add $150 to that if you want to see Stainless.

It could take 2 weeks to a month to get all the materials together and have a finished piece.

I just sold my ideal test bed...my 1970 Dodge Dart....But I have a complete 318 I can put on my engine stand that I can use for mockup and fitment.

I highly intend to make these be able to work for Power Steering cars because I know that the power steering box takes up some real estate on the driver side...so I may need someone to take some Exhaust Flange to Steering Box location measurements, and measurements and location of the steering shaft....the passenger header has never been a fitment issue if memory serves, but I want to make sure and keep everything a good fit there also.

I think the timing of my concept idea couldn't be worse...the economy is in the tank, and people would rather eat....but keep the interest coming and lets see how this pans out!

I am totally serious about this concept....Someone should have done this years ago!