Help! Newly renovated engine got stuck while cranking it...

[daredevil]

You say it started when you stabbed the new distributor. Did you have to suck it down with the yoke. Any chance the shafts key isnt engaged in the intermediate shafts slot.If it were tightened down like this there would definitely be interference.

 

[daredevil]

Never seen anyone seize a bearing by hand.Guess anythings possible.

 

[Oklacarcollecto]

If it got worse and worse and then locked down, it's a bearing failure. Cut and dry.

You could be 100% correct but I have sure have made a lot of money buying newer cars off people that didn't check it out first.

Years ago, I bought a really nice Chevy truck with a locked up engine and the mechanic told then it needed a new engine. I found a torque converter bolt had come off and gotten stuck between the ring gear and starter drive teeth. One bolt (less than a quarter back then) and it was fixed. Put the truck in the bank the next day.



Bought a 1996 Ford Taurus with a bad transmission according to the tranny shop just to find a bad passenger side axle. Pulled one out of a junker and was driving the car in less than two hours. Put it in the bank with in a few days. Tranny shop owner went to prison for meth charges about a year later. He still resides there today.

 

[OLDSTYLE]

Pull the oil pan and remove a few bearing caps. Have seen a few rebuilt motors that were cleaned by shotblasting still have some shot not completely cleaned out of the oil passages, when the oil pressure starts to build the shot gets forced into the bearings and locks the motor up.

 

[Oklacarcollecto]

Pull the oil pan and remove a few bearing caps. Have seen a few rebuilt motors that were cleaned by shotblasting still have some shot not completely cleaned out of the oil passages, when the oil pressure starts to build the shot gets forced into the bearings and locks the motor up.

In my opinion, if it comes to a bearing issue being the problem then the whole engine needs tore down and inspected. There is a stong possibility that the builder goofed up on more than one thing if there are bearing issues.

 

[TrailBeast]

Have either of you guys seen a 2 stroke that seized up?
Burns those rings and piston right to the cylinder wall.
It's possible that if it was a fresh bore new pistons and rings, that flooding it (He said that) and blowing the cyl out with air (Said that too)therefore washing the oil of the cyclinders and then turning by hand and with the starter to prime the oil pump it just lightly siezed.

Right?

The bearings apparently had oil from priming, the cylinders didn't.
This is my school of thought on it from thr OP's description.

most definitely

 

[68gtxman]

Since you said it got hard to turn after you installed the distributor, remove it and see if that is the problem. A screw could have gotten stuck inside the distributor and turned it into a bad blender.

 

[Bulldozer]

Have either of you guys seen a 2 stroke that seized up?
Burns those rings and piston right to the cylinder wall.
It's possible that if it was a fresh bore new pistons and rings, that flooding it (He said that) and blowing the cyl out with air (Said that too)therefore washing the oil of the cyclinders and then turning by hand and with the starter to prime the oil pump it just lightly siezed.

Right?

The bearings apparently had oil from priming, the cylinders didn't.
This is my school of thought on it from thr OP's description.

very possible. the last motor i saw with a bearing issue would turn, then barely turn , then not at all. im not saying this is necessarily the problem, just one observation ive had.

Originally Posted by Tocca
Question though, why remove rockers? To remove even more compression than what was removed when uninstalling spark plugs?

because that will relieve any top end stress and avoid any valve to piston contact (where applicable )if it is out of time. plus you wont bend anything if it is. i watched a guy spin around a 440 with a cheater bar that was out of time, and right before our eyes we watched the pushrods bend.

with all of that out of the way, there is no reason this engine should not spin freely. of course unless theres a bad bearing. the only thing outside of the bottom end rotating by itself without any resistance is going to be the timing chain to the cam, and the oil pump / distributor drive. just for kicks, put it neutral

 

[TrailBeast]

I'll bet ya a hundred bucks.
Know why?
He said they washed the cylinders down with gas. (exibit one) Flooded it.
He said he blew the cylinders out with air (exibit two) (also blowing oil off new rings and cylinder of more lube.
Cranked it far a bit to prime, saw oil at the rockers (which incudes crank and cam) to get it at the rockers)
How much cranking a dry set of rings up and down a cylinder takes to seize to the cylinder wall is anybody's guess I guess.

Just my gut on this one since all the info fits

very possible. the last motor i saw with a bearing issue would turn, then barely turn , then not at all. im not saying this is necessarily the problem, just one observation ive had.



because that will relieve any top end stress and avoid any valve to piston contact (where applicable )if it is out of time. plus you wont bend anything if it is. i watched a guy spin around a 440 with a cheater bar that was out of time, and right before our eyes we watched the pushrods bend.

with all of that out of the way, there is no reason this engine should not spin freely. of course unless theres a bad bearing. the only thing outside of the bottom end rotating by itself without any resistance is going to be the timing chain to the cam, and the oil pump / distributor drive. just for kicks, put it neutral

 

[Bulldozer]

I'll bet ya a hundred bucks.
Know why?
He said they washed the cylinders down with gas. (exibit one) Flooded it.
He said he blew the cylinders out with air (exibit two) (also blowing oil off new rings and cylinder of more lube.
Cranked it far a bit to prime, saw oil at the rockers (which incudes crank and cam) to get it at the rockers)
How much cranking a dry set of rings up and down a cylinder takes to seize to the cylinder wall is anybody's guess I guess.

Just my gut on this one since all the info fits

i wont take that bet TrailBeast lol, its a very good possibility. i would do as i outlined above and then apply your suggestion of lubing up the cylinders. if it isnt going to spin freely with all that going on, then....well.... i know what i would be doing LOL

if those cylinders are bone dry and the piston rings are bone dry , that would make sense that it got harder to turn until it wouldnt

 

[TrailBeast]

Know why????



I'd have to make $5 payments over time right now.

If the lube didn't do it I'd tear it down and see what the hell too.
Even if the lube does it, I'd still be suspect of the condition of thoes supposed new parts.
But since we can't really go and chk it out, it's all guesses huh?

i wont take that bet TrailBeast lol, its a very good possibility. i would do as i outlined above and then apply your suggestion of lubing up the cylinders. if it isnt going to spin freely with all that going on, then....well.... i know what i would be doing LOL

 

[Bulldozer]

Know why????



I'd have to make $5 payments over time right now.

If the lube didn't do it I'd tear it down and see what the hell too.
Even if the lube does it, I'd still be suspect of the condition of thoes supposed new parts.
But since we can't really go and chk it out, it's all guesses huh?

yep lol its all just a shot in the dark without being there. i will be watching this though ...hopefully we will hear back from the OP

 

[OldmanRick]

I know this was not a new build, but many years ago my buddy decided to tune up his parents 69' Charger w/ 318 and about 40k on it about 2 hrs. before they were supposed to leave on a 1,500 mi. vacation. Did plugs, oil and filters and got what i remember as a Gumout carb cleaning kit that replaced the fuel line, hung from the hood latch and you were supposed to fast idle it until the can ran out. Well he decided to start reving the engine and after 2 or 3 times that sucker locked up in about 3 seconds. Talk about panic setting in. Long story short, we pulled the plugs and oiled the cylinders and after what seemed like forever were able to get it to crank. Last i saw it had over a hundred thou. and was still gettin' it done.

 

[TrailBeast]

It' gonna get interesting before it's over for sure.
Just think,,,we are having an interesting evening disussing this guy's luck on how it comes out.:banghead:

I'd hate to be him watching this conversation and not knowing what's up for sure.
I hope he sticks with it and resolves it, AND stays with us on the progress too.

yep lol its all just a shot in the dark without being there. i will be watching this though ...hopefully we will hear back from the OP

 

[cudascott]

I think he's pulling those heads right now while we're all gambling on what it is
My gut still says he washed the cylinders down

 

[Demon416]

Geez, I hope the guy logs back on here. Would kinda' suck if we didn't find out what went wrong.

 

[Tocca]

First off all. Thanks for all the support and helpful posts! Everyone can be calm, I will keep you updated on the progress. As of now I am just hoarding information since the car is a two hour drive away and I won't be able to get there until next weekend when my holiday starts. Then the plan is as follows (feel free to comment on it):

1. Check that the starter is disengaged, if not, remove (and try turning engine by hand to see if this was only problem).
2. Maybe remove rockers. Is this a delicate matter? I understand I should keep the rockers on the same cylinders after reassembling, but is there anything else to think of when disassembling and reassembling? Do I need torque wrench to reassemble? Remove anything other than just the rockers and the bolt holding them? pushrods, is this difficult?
3. Maybe remove distributor. Once I turn engine without distributor, is there any trick to getting it back correctly? Do I need to turn the oil pump or is it just as good to just turn the distributor to try and find the fit? How do I avoid putting it on 180 degrees wrong?
3a. Look down distributor socket and search for anything that might have dropped down or look wrong...
4. Prime oil pump. If it is possible without priming tool? how?
5. Pour a table spoon of oil down each spark plug hole.
6. A small puff of air down each spark plug hole.
7. Turn a few inch CCW by hand.
8. Turn a few inch CW by hand.
8a. If it feels like it loosened up, try turning around by hand.
8b. If it looses up, assemble distributor, rockers, spark plugs and dial in ignition timing and try starting up.
8c. Hopefully I will hear the v8 roar!
9. Still stuck? Well f*ck me... tearing down needed....?

Other toughs.
- Someone mentioned fuel pump bolt. With the information I have given, is this likely to be a concern for me, and then where in the progress and how should I check it?
- Both cables from the battery got warm pretty fast while using the starter in the final stage. Is this because of the resistance, or is is likely some electrical fault also that I need to address at this point?
- Is there anything that can/needs to be done about the paint flakes in the oil? Removing oil pan at this stage is hard.. don't have new gasket and access to drop it downwards is restricted.
- This is Sweden, and the work is either being done in a back yard or at a somewhat modern car mechanic. There won't be "known working starter" to fit a small bock or a small block oil pump primer tool and perhaps not even a tool to look down the cylinders or distributor hole. Would appreciate you thinking of this when giving your welcomed answers

Feel free to comment on anything or everything I have written above! Cheers!

 

[swedefish]

http://butik.arvikael-motor.se/Motordelar/Oljepump?product_id=815
This is a link for a priming shaft at Arvika El o Motor.

 

[Bulldozer]

1. Check that the starter is disengaged, if not, remove (and try turning engine by hand to see if this was only problem).

i would just take it out completely

2. Maybe remove rockers. Is this a delicate matter? I understand I should keep the rockers on the same cylinders after reassembling, but is there anything else to think of when disassembling and reassembling? Do I need torque wrench to reassemble? Remove anything other than just the rockers and the bolt holding them? pushrods, is this difficult?

just take out the 5 bolts on the shaft and remove as a unit, you dont have to disturb the assembly. it only takes a few mintues to do. pull out the pushrods, done deal.

3. Maybe remove distributor. Once I turn engine without distributor, is there any trick to getting it back correctly? Do I need to turn the oil pump or is it just as good to just turn the distributor to try and find the fit? How do I avoid putting it on 180 degrees wrong?

i would pull out the pump drive gear and the distributor both, just to be sure. it will only take a few minutes to get it back in time with a piston stop

3a. Look down distributor socket and search for anything that might have dropped down or look wrong...HOPEFULLY, THERES NOT A CROWBAR STUCK IN THE CRANKCASE
4. Prime oil pump. If it is possible without priming tool? how?JUST GET A PRIMING ROD, VERY INEXPENSIVE AND PUT IT ON YOUR DRILL
5. Pour a table spoon of oil down each spark plug hole.YES
6. A small puff of air down each spark plug hole.YES, THIS WILL SPREAD THE OIL ONTO THE CYLINDER WALLS
7. Turn a few inch CCW by hand. IF IT STARTS TO MOVE KEEP ADDING ADD A LITTLE MORE OIL TO EACH CYLINDER , YOU MAY NEED A CHEATER TO GET IT GOING, BUT DONT SNAP OFF THE CRANK BOLT
8. Turn a few inch CW by hand. IF NECESSARY
8a. If it feels like it loosened up, try turning around by hand.IF ITS GOING TO SPIN FREELY IT WILL
8b. If it looses up, assemble distributor, rockers, spark plugs and dial in ignition timing and try starting up. I WOULD PUT THE STARTER BACK IN, AND LET THE STARTER SPIN IT A NUMBER OF TIMES BEFORE SPENDING THE TIME TO RE-ASSEMBLE IT
8c. Hopefully I will hear the v8 roar! LETS HOPE SO !
9. Still stuck? Well f*ck me... tearing down needed....?STILL NOT MOVING, GET OUT THE HOIST

Other toughs.
- Someone mentioned fuel pump bolt. With the information I have given, is this likely to be a concern for me, and then where in the progress and how should I check it?TAKE THE FUEL PUMP OUT WHILE YOUR THERE
- Both cables from the battery got warm pretty fast while using the starter in the final stage. Is this because of the resistance, or is is likely some electrical fault also that I need to address at this point?ITS BECAUSE THE STARTER IS FIGHTING TO CRANK THE MOTOR AND DRAWING AMPS
- Is there anything that can/needs to be done about the paint flakes in the oil? Removing oil pan at this stage is hard.. don't have new gasket and access to drop it downwards is restricted.I WOULDNT WORRY ABOUT THAT RIGHT NOW

- This is Sweden, and the work is either being done in a back yard or at a somewhat modern car mechanic. There won't be "known working starter" to fit a small bock or a small block oil pump primer tool and perhaps not even a tool to look down the cylinders or distributor hole. Would appreciate you thinking of this when giving your welcomed answers JUST WORRY ABOUT SPINNING IT BY HAND. KEEP THE CYLINDERS LUBED UP AND THEN GET THE OIL PRESSURE UP AFTER YOU GET IT LOOSE

PUT THE TRANSMISSION IN NEUTRAL PLEASE

sorry for the caps, disregard, and good luck, hope this helps

 

[TrailBeast]

PLEASE Do 5,6,7,8 first.
It's very likely the rest will be uneccessary.

 

[sixpack340dart]

My first thought is Wrist pins(Connects the piston to the rod)... If they are not oiled/lubed properly on assembly they can seize up... they will only get oil from the crank slinging it up to them when engine is running and will not get oil when priming the engine

 

[Tocca]

Okey, so I've had the chance to work on the car the last few days, tough with limited resources so I had to skip some steps. First I had some progress, but then setbacks...

So I started with checking if the starter was disengaged (step 1), but couldn't see anything 'cause it is in high grass at the moment and I find my self without a jack (didn't think this was the problem anyways). Then I removed distributor (3) and looked if anything had dropped down in the gears (3a) but it looked just fine, so I poured a table spoon of oil down each spark plug hole (5) and continued to turn it a little bit by hand (7). Felt like it loosened up so I poured a table spoon in each hole again and turned it completely around (8a). Whii...! Tried turning it with the starter and it turned just fine, and still does. Does someone owe TrailBeast money now? =)

This is where the setbacks started. I connected all spark cables and set up the ignition timing best I could; meaning 6-7 degrees BTDC on the damper, then connected cable from point of rotor to first cylinder, and so on in ignition order (1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 clockwise on the distributor cap). Turned the ignition on, and of course the battery was dead....

Got battery charged over night and tried starting. Nothing happens other than the engine going around. Checked the spark plugs. Oily... Well I'm not surprised since I poured quite some oil in there. Blew them off with compressed air and also blew the spark plug holes so the excess oil was removed. Tried igniting again. Two small puffs from the carburetor, nothing more. Checked the spark plugs. Not oily. Tried the starter a bit more. Two small puffs again, then a big puff with gas straight up from the carburetor. A bit strange?

Thinking I flooded it I removed spark plugs and let it air out over night. The next day (today) I tried a bit more. Same thing; carburetor squirting some gasoline... Thinking I got no spark I checked for spark on first cylinder. Had a spark. So I tried starting again, now with some boost on the battery from another car. The mother ******* carburetor started burning!, had like 2 inch high orange flames coming straight up from the open choke gates. Dad puffed some powder on it with the extinguisher, which I quickly removed with compressed air.

And this is where I am at... Any suggestions? I just want the damn thing started...

 

[Oklacarcollecto]

Okey, so I've had the chance to work on the car the last few days, tough with limited resources so I had to skip some steps. First I had some progress, but then setbacks...

So I started with checking if the starter was disengaged (step 1), but couldn't see anything 'cause it is in high grass at the moment and I find my self without a jack (didn't think this was the problem anyways). Then I removed distributor (3) and looked if anything had dropped down in the gears (3a) but it looked just fine, so I poured a table spoon of oil down each spark plug hole (5) and continued to turn it a little bit by hand (7). Felt like it loosened up so I poured a table spoon in each hole again and turned it completely around (8a). Whii...! Tried turning it with the starter and it turned just fine, and still does. Does someone owe TrailBeast money now? =)

This is where the setbacks started. I connected all spark cables and set up the ignition timing best I could; meaning 6-7 degrees BTDC on the damper, then connected cable from point of rotor to first cylinder, and so on in ignition order (1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 clockwise on the distributor cap). Turned the ignition on, and of course the battery was dead....

Got battery charged over night and tried starting. Nothing happens other than the engine going around. Checked the spark plugs. Oily... Well I'm not surprised since I poured quite some oil in there. Blew them off with compressed air and also blew the spark plug holes so the excess oil was removed. Tried igniting again. Two small puffs from the carburetor, nothing more. Checked the spark plugs. Not oily. Tried the starter a bit more. Two small puffs again, then a big puff with gas straight up from the carburetor. A bit strange?

Thinking I flooded it I removed spark plugs and let it air out over night. The next day (today) I tried a bit more. Same thing; carburetor squirting some gasoline... Thinking I got no spark I checked for spark on first cylinder. Had a spark. So I tried starting again, now with some boost on the battery from another car. The mother ******* carburetor started burning!, had like 2 inch high orange flames coming straight up from the open choke gates. Dad puffed some powder on it with the extinguisher, which I quickly removed with compressed air.

And this is where I am at... Any suggestions? I just want the damn thing started...

Distributer out 180 degrees?

 

[Bulldozer]

Distributer out 180 degrees?

XS 2 !!


you are almost there bud. im betting its 180 out. 9 times out of 10 it will pop through the carb when it is. aaahhhh the beauty of air cleaners LOL

 

[Tocca]

Distributer out 180 degrees?

Does the symptoms point to that? Because I don't think so. It is placed both as on my old almost-working engine and as in the service manual. Vacuum connector pointing to fender on passenger side and rotor pointing to first cylinder when 6-7 degrees BTDC. The car mechanic who helped me before looked at the levers last time we worked on the car, and he said it looked correct. But he could be wrong I guess.