holley 390 tuning

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slantscamp

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hey guys. so i have put about 40 miles on my new engine. i had it to where it would idle while i was sitting at lights and was running pretty decent. but yesterday it would want to die when i pulled up to a stop. and i noticed it surging when i was driving about 25 mph, so i figured i better look at the plugs and tune the carb up. i pulled the plugs and they didnt look rich, they actually look lean, but i havent really driven the car much, just around town on a few test drives. i hooked up a vacuum gauge and its reading at 19. i have never really tuned a carb. what would be the next step. i got it to idle again and took the car out for a test drive, but a few minutes later it wanted to die at a light, it is also still surging. any advice will help, im kind of lost when it comes to this stuff. thanks
-aaron-
 
oh yeah, sorry. i checked those. they were full to the bottom of the screw. my dad was saying it sounds like i dont have enough fuel pressure. do you think the 3/8 fuel lines i ran are too big? im just running a mechanical fuel pump.
 
that was my second thought was fuel pressure,3/8 line should be ok.start with the simple things..plugged fuel filter or vac leak?
 
Fuel line size should not be a problem.

What jets are you running? Tell us about your build. Compression? What engine, cam, what are all the goodies you installed.

The following is a list of what you need to know about the carburetor to get started with tuning:

Primary jets, shooter, pump cam color and which screw, Secondary plate or jets, secondary spring. Is this a new carb? Universal? A used one off something else? What's the list number?

Fresh out of the box, an 8007 not work well without some serious tuning.

CJ
 
Fuel line size should not be a problem.

What jets are you running? Tell us about your build. Compression? What engine, cam, what are all the goodies you installed.

The following is a list of what you need to know about the carburetor to get started with tuning:

Primary jets, shooter, pump cam color and which screw, Secondary plate or jets, secondary spring. Is this a new carb? Universal? A used one off something else? What's the list number?

Fresh out of the box, an 8007 not work well without some serious tuning.

CJ

ok here goes. its a brand new holley 390. the motor is a 225 slant six bored .040 over. it has a stock head at the moment. (i know this is hurting me especially in the compression department but i got a good deal) im running an offenhauser intake and clifford headers with dual 2 1/4 inch exhaust into magnaflow mufflers. im running a comp cam. 252 int./252 exh. with an rpm range of 800-4500 rpm. is that good information. i dont mean to sound dumb.
this is my first engine build and im still learning alot.yesterday i learned that aftermarket cams come with their own valve lash specs. i adjusted mine to factory spec int. .010 exh. .020 but comp cams recomends .012 on the exh. i guess thats why my valves were so noisy. but i was never told about this and i was going by the factory service manual. oh well at least im learning.
 
What power valve do you have? I had to jump mine up to cure a cruize surge like the one you have. If it's a 6.5 go to a 8.5, what jets are in the carb at your elevation you maybe lean.

Have you done the fuel line mod? If not this could cause the hot stall at stops.

TF
 
i will have to check the power valve and jets. by fuel line mod, you mean running it up and over the valve cover? i did that.

P7303892.jpg
 
OK, I'm not sure on your primary jets, but I'll guess that they are a bit too big.

Good numbers for the 390 with your build for a starting point are going to be 52's or 54's for the primary, your plate is probably a 39, but let's leave that alone for now.
As Tristan points out, the PV is probably a 6.5. If you want to go with an 8.5 to try it out, that may work. I wouldn't. Go with a 10.5. Do not install a dual range PV. They are like 12.5 and another number like 9.5 ..something like that. They don't flow enough fuel and you definitely won't be happy with the price!

You need to buy some bits and pieces for this install. One is a quick change secondary spring kit. Your life will be much better. Believe me!
Next up, you need a secondary spring kit, and a pump cam kit. What will make your life much better, purchase a conversion secondary metering block so you can install jets instead of playing with secondary plates.
If your set on using plates, then take a look at an 18 or a 30. The 39 is god awful rich. The 32 or 4 is a possibility too if your secondary still runs rich. I doubt it will though. There is no rhyme or reason to the numbering for the plates.
As soon as you start building compression this all goes out the window.

Get yourself a vacuum gauge and hook into the base of the carburetor, not the number six runner. You won't get a good number there. I install a pipe plug in that tap, because it serves no useful purpose. Power brakes are for weenies. :lol:

Pump cams are going to be fun.
You are going to want a Pink or Orange pump cam. Try to stick with screw hole #1. Whenever you change pump cams, you have to check the gap at WOT to make sure you aren't going to tear the crud out of the pump diaphram. Don't skip this ever! Gasoline splashing everywhere is bad!

Your shooter will probably be a 28. Depending on how things are going in the engine, a 31 may help. With the 390 you don't need a 50cc shot. The 30cc pump that comes on it will be fine. Do not play with the black or Brown pump cams. If it's a 25, stick a 28 on there. I don't know what a 25 is good for, but it isn't for a car that gets stood on.

Tune the primary first. To start, set the secondary idle screw to Holley's factory spec. It's in the manual. you may have to play with this if your idle adjustment screws don't do anything on the primary block. Bump the secondary plate open just a tiny, tiny bit if that's the case. That should allow you to shut the primary plates enough to close the transfer slots at idle.

Lock the secondary out so it won't pull in. The black spring will do that nicely. Your engine will not open the secondary against the black spring.

This is where an A/F meter will really help. You need to have a vacuum gauge to tell which circuit of the carburetor is running the show. If your lean at 15" HG, and rich at 10ish" HG, that's your power valve coming in.
You should idle in the 19"+ range in drive with your cam. Get it out on a cruise of 55 mph or so, look at your vacuum reading. Should be pretty high. 15+ inches of mercury. If you don't have an A/F gauge, go home and pull the plugs. It's hard to read plugs with reformulated gas, so just look for some color. If it's scary white, bump it up. If your running extended plugs, it'll be hard to do. Run conventional plugs for tuning. Then put NGK ZFR5N plugs in it. :grin:

A surge will indicate lean. Lean surge is found at cruise. You'll know it when you find it. If you can get rid of the surge by stepping on the throttle and getting into the power valve, that's what you have.

Get your primary jets straightened out, then put the purple spring in. Go out and stand in it. Look for people in official looking cars first! Purple will work with a basically stock set up long block and a few flow improving devices like your headers and intake.

Your vacuum is going to go to zip. Now your going to need an A/F gauge, or the folks at the strip timing you and lots of gaskets and jets. I recommend the A/F gauge.

Timing is going to play havok with you. Your going to need about 10 degrees of intitial, then you want 30-32 degrees total with mechanical all in. Try to find a 9R governor for your distributor. That makes 18 degrees of mechanical. Hopefully you made the trip to EI. The vacuum advance won't make much difference for your power circuits, but will pull in for cruise.

OK. That's enough for now. Enjoy the tuning experience!

CJ
 
thanks cj. i watched the holley tuning dvd last night and it pretty much said everything that you said. i went and bought the quick change kit and spring kit today but didnt have time to install it. i will be printing out your suggestions and start having fun with this thing. i deffinitly have a surge when im cruising and it goes away when i get on it. i will need to jump on the freeway though and then look at my plugs. today i just cruised it around town to get some more miles on it.
 
Wow! I could have bought a DVD? Just think of the months of toiling away that could have solved! :lol:

Yep, I do everything the hard way! :roll:

:)

CJ
 
Just out of curiosity, do you have a peanut or drool tube head on your car?

CJ
 
Like I said, reformulated gasoline is tough on the old school tuner. It's hard to read plugs with it. If your going to stay with the 390 Holley consider installing an O2 sensor and A/F gauge. Even a narrow band will help a bunch.

Bump the primary jets up a step and see if your lean surge goes away. Once you get rid of the lean surge, your just lean of peak. That will likely be close enough until you start building more compression. Then it will become more critical to get it spot on. A stocker is going to have 8:1 compression at best. You can tolerate a leaner burn with your setup. I was getting better than 23mpg freeway when my build was similar. The Holley 390 delivers the best economy on this engine that I've seen. With your lighter car, you may do better.

What are you running for a distributor? Have you mapped your timing curve? A stocker will tolerate a lighter spring to hop out your curve. Leave the strong spring alone though. Did you say you had an 11R Governor? That's a bit much but you should still be OK as long as your Vacuum advance doesn't add too much. Without EGR, use minimal vacuum advance. With no inerts from an EGR you will have high head temperatures with too much cruise advance.
With the stock compression, I was able to go out to nearly 50 degrees all in, but my engine speed for full in back then was around 3400 rpm for mechanical, so I never saw that amount of advance. Now that I dumped the 2.76's for 3.50's it would have been an issue. I regularly can see 3200 rpm going down the freeway.
I run a Mallory Unilite with 14.5 degrees initial, and ~29 degrees all in by 2300-ish rpm. No provision for vacuum advance. But I have 10.3:1, so really don't want any more. I still can get good economy, but measure that around a basic freeway economy of 15.5-18mpg, speed dependent. My Holley 390 hangs on the wall. I retired my 600cfm Holley as well last year and switched over to a 500cfm Carter AFB. I will not go back to the Holley with a naturally aspirated build. :shock:

Think about a 500 cfm Edelbrock or Carter AVS. That's the stuff! :grin: It will run pretty darn well right out of the box. You will learn a lot about carburetors with the Holley though! :lol:


CJ
 
Mopar lists the Holley 390/Offenhauser combination in their 6 Cylinder Engines book. FWIW, here are the Mopar Performance setup recommendations.

Primary Jet # 49
Secondary Jet #52
Power Valve 25R-591A-65
PV Channel Restriction .052"
Idle Air Bleed .078"
High Speed Bleed .043"
Diaphram Spring Yellow

I plan on installing the same carburetor on my 73 (different manifold) and will be interested in what you learn along the way. Keep us posted. Thanks.
 
ok i have about had it with this holley. i dont have the patience for this tuning stuff. two of my older friends, one who came highly recommended for tuning holleys helped me with it today. well now its tons worse. it doesnt idle and it sputters when i stand on it. he says the carb is just too small. we cant get a steady idle out of it. ive checked for vacuum leaks, cant find anything. changed timing, idle mixture, i even went from 53 jets to 63's and its still surging. i also have a 10.5 power valve and 31 squirter. we tried a few secondary plates but nothing made an improvement on idle quality. he said that its surging because its trying to get fuel and then dropping back down after. then when i put it in gear it just dies. im frustrated with it, so in the garage it will sit.
 
well here is what i found yesterday. i bolted on a different 390 holley that a friend had on his shelf. now it fires up and actually idles. it wouldnt idle in gear before. it has a little off idle stumble with a 31 squirter in it. (no one had a 28 in stock) but the only big problem i have is it stumbles and pops when i get on it on the freeway. when the transmission kicks down it starts missing and eventually it starts to pull. does this sound like a timing issue. i need to double check what we set it at. i know the bracket wont let me advance it anymore unless i pull the distributor off an adjust the bracket. from what you guys have told me i should have 10* initial right? i also pulled out the mr gasket distributor springs i had in it and put the stocks back in place. that made a big difference also. that car seemed to advance way to fast with those other springs. thanks
-aaron-
 
Your friend is way off base on that Holley being too small. All but the meanest slants can run on the 390 (possible exception of force induction).
Sounds like you need to put it back to stock and start over. Something got screwed up somewhere.
Frank
 
i agree. i actually have it running pretty good now. it just misses up top when i floor it and the transmission kicks down. but i need to double check the timing.
 
Hey Ceej,

What modifications would you recommend for a 390 Holley on a Slant running about 9:1 CR?

I don't know the exact CR, but I did take 0.090" off the head on the 1980 motor. Just an estimate based on the chamber volumes typical for the time.

bwhitejr

Forgot to mention this is a truck.
 
I don't have any tuning advice, but you
sure have a sweet looking engine compartment.
Hope you get her running right .:cheers:
 
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