Is it just me or is this wrong??

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66340SEDAN said:
I just seen this under his other items, this one is for a 440 GTS Dart. What is this guy thinking? :thebirdm:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969...yZ140720QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Click to expand...

It is my opinion that if both of these sellers were selling the complete shell of the original car with the dash frame,core support and the trunk rails with the matchingnumbers AND a tittle. That this would be morally acceptable. Because you could call it a rebody and no one can argue that after 39-40 that such a rare car might have a shot rusted out body. But the seller of the new car would have picture proof of the original upon selling such a car. Does this make sense to anyone else?
 
Looks like the seller on both items is the same.
Might be a sting op.
Press: Buy It Now! See what happens.

01150301040901161120080311af85ef0964f64aa7fd00a0ac.jpg
 
yea gotta love it i like this one it was on ebay not to long ago the guy even cut the door tag off ive seen were they cut the radiator support n trunk lip with fender tag really sad 200206050392 put this ebay # in the search
 
Ebay strikes again.

SGBARRACUDA puts an interesting twist on the process.
The “body” did go somewhere.
Probably to the crusher.
Well, since you asked for thoughts, I’m going to paste something I wrote from a similar thread.

Honest is one thing.
“Salvation” is another.

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=26028&highlight=clone+body&page=2

Clones and “fakes”.
Seems to me it’s all in one’s perspective.

Perhaps a person more concerned that his Hemi whatever will be worth less because there are “more” of them? Or is it preferable to have more “Max Wedge” cars at the drive in instead of SS Chevelles?
(Remember the kid in the parking lot?)

It almost like people are trying to keep the bloodlines pure.
For who? For generations yet un-born?

GG says it is only “original” once.
And by my logic no matter how much one spends to “restore” a basket case, Chrysler didn’t build it.
Someone else did.

Follow this:
(Years ago I actually saw something very close to the following statement about metal in one of the Mopar publications. It was about a rare E Body Cuda that was “saved”.
Right then I knew……….)

Someone cuts up a perfectly good Satellite and grafts that metal onto a Road Runner carcass. The only thing that is saved from the Road Runner is the cowl, radiator support, trunk and roof.
I think that gets about all the body VIN numbers?
All the other metal came from the poor “donor” car.
This is call restoration and it is acceptable.
Yet we now have a whole body that Chrysler DID NOT put together.

But if someone takes the documentation from a hopeless Road Runner and puts that documentation on a nice Satellite body, we now have car with a body that Chrysler actually DID put together.
This is viewed as wrong by many “authorities”. It is a “re-numbered body”.

Which car would you want?
For better or worse, that is the way it is.
 
That has been my feeling all along. At what point do you call it restored and at what point is it "rebodied"? How much metal is alowed to be replaced and still called an original. To me if i were to posess the original body, with all the correct numbers with a good tittle, say an M code dart that was just a total wasted rust bucket and also had a C code rust free dart body. I would have no problem doing a rebody and call it restored. I think everybody would like to find a RO23 hemi Dart that was parked in a garage in late 1968 before the guy went off to Nam and never came back,blah blah blah and buy it for a song. But lets get real, there is littlle chance of that. If I were the potenial buyer of such a M code Dart and was shown all of this type documentation I would have no problem buying it at a fair price. But that is just my view.
 
Swapping VIN Plates,etc is a Federal Offense and also Fraud!
And Uncle Sam does not play games. Ask anybody that got caught.
 
fraud /
–noun 1. deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud

'In criminal law, fraud is the crime or offense of deliberately deceiving another in order to damage them – usually, to obtain property or services unjustly."

"Swapping" is another issue.
 
adriver said:
fraud /
–noun 1. deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud

'In criminal law, fraud is the crime or offense of deliberately deceiving another in order to damage them – usually, to obtain property or services unjustly."

"Swapping" is another issue.
Click to expand...

10-4. I use to rebuild late model wrecks and there is a legal way to swap vin numbers. I rebuilt a 96 nissan Pathfinder in 96 that was totaled in 96. I had to replace the cab/cowl and the vin became that of the cab/cowl that I used. Now i had the tittle to both. Completely legal, but it was labeled as "rebuilt" on the tittle.
 
This is why I like A-body's. You can buy a slant six car do what ever you
want to it and no one gives you grief about it. I could never keep a car stock. Guy's out there with stock hemi this and that doing 14's or 15's in the 1/4 lame!
 
I don't agree with people tranferring VINS, serials, and parts to another car and passing it off as a rare model. I wonder how many people have been burnt by this?

There's a lot of members here putting lots of time, energy, and money into their cars. They are taking the cars and improving handling, the performance, and looks beyond what the rarer models were/are. It's an awesome thing to see.

I'm not taking anything away from genuine restorations, or cars that are being raced only. We are all doing our part in preserving these cars. My son loves my car, we are keeping the era alive & creating new Mopar fans in the process.
 
ebay does not allow the sale of vehicle titles without the vehicle. I let them know about this one. hopefully they'll take it down.
 
Woodys_Cuda said:
I don't agree with people tranferring VINS, serials, and parts to another car and passing it off as a rare model. I wonder how many people have been burnt by this?

There's a lot of members here putting lots of time, energy, and money into their cars. They are taking the cars and improving handling, the performance, and looks beyond what the rarer models were/are. It's an awesome thing to see.

I'm not taking anything away from genuine restorations, or cars that are being raced only. We are all doing our part in preserving these cars. My son loves my car, we are keeping the era alive & creating new Mopar fans in the process.
Click to expand...

So if you have a rare M code Dart, you would junk it removing it from history rather than saving it? I'm not advocating liying or deceit, but rather full discloser but saving rare car rather than elimenating them.
 

Looking through the latest Mopar rags, the amount of new metal & trim being reproduced is amazing. For E & B bods, its looking like cowls, roofs and practically every other piece is now available. If you suspend your dash and the pieces of non-rusted metal that just happen to contain the "numbers" from a string on the ceiling, and cut away and rebuild the car under them, using them as reference points, is that OK? Sure that's tongue-in-cheek, but it is not unconceivable that a resto can (and I'm sure has) require the replacement of 90% of the metal. These are referred to as "restorations", and accepted as "correct".

Now, what if, instead of piecing the car together underneath the hanging pieces (the "jig"), you instead assemble the same pieces used above on the other side of the garage, and when ready - slide the pre-assembled unit under the hanging pieces before finishing.. hmm - same result, different methodology.

Now lets say that you had a great "parts" car that had a lot of usable metal. Now of course you wouldn't need as much "repro" stuff, and could simply cutout the pieces that are good, and buy what's needed to finish up. Pre-assemble, slide under the "jig" hanging from the roof, and finish. Makes sense. Thats why I have parts cars lol. No different than above, even better because I was able to incorporate all those like-new and NOS parts I've been hoarding.


Now what if the parts car was so good, it only needed a little body work, and some small patches instead of full quarters. Sure, the trim needed replacing , and most of the interior was gutted. Oh well, Less work overall, same result. Slide in place and finish. Again. Same amount of metal replaced, same finished appearance, but... now is it a re-body

What is the difference?
 
SGBARRACUDA said:
So if you have a rare M code Dart, you would junk it removing it from history rather than saving it? I'm not advocating liying or deceit, but rather full discloser but saving rare car rather than elimenating them.
Click to expand...

Nope, that was not what I meant. Each of us is doing our own part by saving these cars.

I think any of us would try to restore that "M" car back to original.

I don't agree with transferring Vins, serials, emblems, etc, to a non original car, and passing it off as an original "M' car.

In other words, keep the VINS, serials, etc., with the original car.
 
"In other words, keep the VINS, serials, etc., with the original car."

What constitutes the original car?
 
My opinion is that if a person wants to build a car using another vehicles Tags then that is fine IMO, just dont pass it along as the real deal when selling it!

When I finish my 71 Dart (orig 6 cyl), it will have been at the cost of a very rusty 71 Demon 340 Car! I have no desire to hunt down V8 Tags for the Dart. The Demon tags, Keys, & title will be retired along with a picture to hang in my Garage!

I have no problem with others building Rare cars if the original is to far gone to restore! Again, as long as its known that it is not original when it comes time to sell it!

Just my 2 cents!
 
This has been done before,its being done now and will be done in the future.If the sellar does not tell the buyer that the car is a rebody car,its fraud.If a person sells the car with the knowledge of buying a rebodied car,and only pays the regular car price,no harm done.The state and provinial laws might say some thing different,but if I found a rebodied car and its a good deal,I have no problem buying it,as long as the tags are not stolen,or registerd as a crushed car.Trying to claim its a numbers matching car with a rare engine,is pushing it.Now a nother piont,how many of you know what to look for to see if the body matches the tags and VIN numbers,locations,how to decode the body,does it come with torque boxes or not,special features to the car,most people will not know and normally know **** about the what they are buying except for the die hard mopar person,and how many of them know that person to check it out to begin with?Most buy it because of looks and motor,and its the in thing to have,would not know the front from the back in most cases.Bottom line is buyer beware and know what you are buying 110%,and have it inspected,and do your reasearch,and make sure you have some one with you that knows 100% more than you do,mrmopartech
 
"The car the VIN was originally installed in. Then rebuild that one even if 90% of the car needs repairing."

If only the areas with the "numbers" is not rusty, are you saying it is OK to replace all of the other metal? With E-body cowls, roofs, quarters and fenders avail now or soon, what actually is meant by the "originally installed in" car. Which components?

I guess what I was trying to say in my original post was:

what is the difference between moving a restored body to the tags vs. moving the tags to another body?

Grant
 
OneOfMany said:
"The car the VIN was originally installed in. Then rebuild that one even if 90% of the car needs repairing."

If only the areas with the "numbers" is not rusty, are you saying it is OK to replace all of the other metal? With E-body cowls, roofs, quarters and fenders avail now or soon, what actually is meant by the "originally installed in" car. Which components?

I guess what I was trying to say in my original post was:

what is the difference between moving a restored body to the tags vs. moving the tags to another body?

Grant
Click to expand...


Well, I can't be judge & jury. I just think the Vins & tags are only meant to be on the original car (body) even if it needs lots of repairs. Rebuild that car. Just my opinion again. We're looking at worst case scenario here.

Normally rust out or accident damage is the main reason to repair a desirable car with parts from a donor car, & with repop parts. Then again, there's the question, is it even worth doing if a large portion of the car needs to be replaced?

Selling The VIN & titles, fendertags, etc. to be grafted on a different car & sold as an original is devious. Not sure on the legalities of it in all jurisdictions.

Interesting discussion.
 
LOL.. I agree that selling VINs is bad. It is illegal. The government has made it illegal. Therefore it is.

The discussion I want to hear regards where the line is actually drawn by us where a "restoration" turns into a "rebody". As far as the statements "on the original car body" that means nothing today. One member on this site replaced all the framerails on their Dart. Others have repaired/patched cowls, some replace entire quarters, repro rad cradles are avail. On moparts some guy restored a 6-pack Cuda from dust. Aside from the unique aspects of some specialty models, lets face it.. the info is avail. today to "do it right".

Is it then OK for a person to cut up a mint "parts car", then reweld all the pieces back together as long as the first piece is welded to the "numbers" and all others attached to it?

Sure, some will argue it's not fair. They believe their vehicle will be worth less because someone has resurrected one similar. Not the question here. If a B-body owner gets into a front-end collision and crumples the rad support, isn't he/she obliged to replace the stamped VIN portion on the new repro rad cradle so the local DMVs can verify the authenticity of the chassis?


FWIW. I dont agree with building bogus VINs, or bogus Fender Tags, or restamping components with the VIN. I just like to raise a little tag and stir up some controversy.

Grant
 
Words are loaded and stir emotions.
Swapping, restoration, re-body, transferring VINS, clone.
That’s not to say words don’t have meaning.
When one buys a car that is forty years old and not original, it is what it is.
Caveat.

What is the difference indeed?
Riddle me this.
In saving that “basket case” we hear about, is the VIN welded to the replacement metal?
Or is the replacement metal welded to the VIN?


It just might depend on what one’s game is.
Are they in it for fun?
Or are they in it for profit?
Are they in it for fun and profit?
 
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