Issue with 2nd gear

[Phreakish]

Co-worker has been doing a bunch of work on his e-body this last year. Finally got it all back together and the trans is giving us fits. 1970 challenger, A833 non-OD 4spd with hurst shifter (no over travel stops), Dana 60 with 3:55Sg.

The trans was bought as a package, new/refurb through and through. Centerforce clutch and royal purple synchromax fluid.

Got it together, took it for a spin and 2nd gear is immediately a no-go. As soon as you pass the gate, it simply grinds. We re-adjusted the linkage: no change. Took off the side cover, inspected and poked as much as we could and nothing seemed out of the ordinary. It's a 71+ synchro setup with the wide keys and lugged synchros. Both first and second have some amount of play when the slider is in neutral. All parts look new inside, except where the dog teeth have seen some nicks now. With the car off, or even running and the clutch pushed in, we can shift all 4 gears without an issue. Reverse engages just fine. We pried the side cover up and forward - there's no drag on the reverse shift cam/lever.

First gear to third is no problem, fourth gear cruises great. We can get second gear at very very low speeds. Talking a walking pace not even idling fully in first and quickly shifting to second. It's VERY easy to bump out of second though. I found that if I brought it up to 2500~3k rpm, pushed in the clutch to disengage first, let the clutch out and rev to ~4k, then push the clutch in and try second it will sometimes engage. Sometimes not (grind). The other strange thing is that once second gear grinds, it's a pain to get any other gear - like the shifter doesn't want to move at all, or is binding. Let the clutch out and it 'clears' its way into neutral. From there we can get 1st, 3rd, or 4th no issue.

We did notice the linkage binding a bit on the cross member under the car, so we put a 1/4" spacer under the tail to raise it. Now everything is 100% clear and free moving - same issue.

The next step seems to be to yank the trans and tear it down. But what if we find nothing out of the ordinary? What could cause this? I had thought perhaps the first gear synchro (since it's mostly an issue once the car is rolling) might be stuck but it moves freely when the slider is in neutral.

 

[Phreakish]

Forgot to mention: shift forks are bronze. The 1-2 fork shows a witness mark at 12 o'clock from the slider. It's not massive or deep at all, but it's there. Seems normal, but this thing literally has 2 miles on it... so I figured it worth mentioning.

 

[Daves69]

Before you pull it down just a thing to try maybe. .... Does the shifter seem to travel further when it does make second? Have you tried to isolate the 3-4 in neutral detent, removing the rod, then try a couple 1 to 2 shifts? Try same idea with reverse gear?

 

[Phreakish]

Before you pull it down just a thing to try maybe. .... Does the shifter seem to travel further when it does make second? Have you tried to isolate the 3-4 in neutral detent, removing the rod, then try a couple 1 to 2 shifts? Try same idea with reverse gear?

When we do make second, the amount of travel seems slightly more as it 'grabs'.

We have not tried centering the 3-4 and then removing the rod. We have confirmed that the 3-4 and 1-2 are in neutral when aligned with the alignment hole in the shifter. Crossing the 'h' in the neutral gate is easy, there does not seem to be any bind there either.

We've confirmed that reverse is fully disengaging and resting at the disengaged point on it's detent, but have not removed the rod to give it a try (kinda need reverse to get the car off the lift anyway, that would suck to try, but...).

 

[Daves69]

............
We have not tried centering the 3-4 and then removing the rod. We have confirmed that the 3-4 and 1-2 are in neutral when aligned with the alignment hole in the shifter. Crossing the 'h' in the neutral gate is easy, there does not seem to be any bind there either.......................QUOTE]

My thinking is you remove any possibility of a shifter malfunction or hang up with this.

While on the rack, can you determine if it is trying to move two shifter tabs at the same time on the 1-2 shift?
The hole alignment is a starting point. You can try biasing the shift rod 1, maybe 2 revolutions longer for the 1- 2 shift.

 

[Phreakish]

We'll give it a go with the 3-4 disconnected.

Yeah, realize the pin alignment is just a starting point. We did tweak it a little since the cross-over in neutral was a little wonky at first and on the 1-2 shift the shifter was hitting the shift housing. We were really hoping addressing that would fix it - it didn't.

 

[Phreakish]

So we still had the issue with 3-4 disconnected. We've pulled the trans and have the side cover off and still can't see anything different or abnormal. Synchro doesn't appear cracked, etc.

Here's what IS a little strange though.. if I push the output shaft IN (toward the engine side of trans) until the endplay is gone, it locks up on the 3rd gear synchro and won't freewheel in neutral. There's also about .100" of endplay on the output shaft.

I have an A body 833 on the floor to compare against, and the endplay on it is far far less (not measured, but would guess in the .02x range). When I push the input shaft forward on that trans to take up the endplay, it doesn't lock anything up..

I think when trying to shift 2nd gear, the slider is pushing the whole cluster forward and the 3rd gear synchro is being closed down on and causing the issue.

Now my question is: what's the proper endplay here, and how to fix it?

 

[TrailBeast]

So we still had the issue with 3-4 disconnected. We've pulled the trans and have the side cover off and still can't see anything different or abnormal. Synchro doesn't appear cracked, etc.

Here's what IS a little strange though.. if I push the output shaft IN (toward the engine side of trans) until the endplay is gone, it locks up on the 3rd gear synchro and won't freewheel in neutral. There's also about .100" of endplay on the output shaft.

I have an A body 833 on the floor to compare against, and the endplay on it is far far less (not measured, but would guess in the .02x range). When I push the input shaft forward on that trans to take up the endplay, it doesn't lock anything up..

I think when trying to shift 2nd gear, the slider is pushing the whole cluster forward and the 3rd gear synchro is being closed down on and causing the issue.

Now my question is: what's the proper endplay here, and how to fix it?

If I am not mistaken the rear bearing determines that.
You might have a worn one, or the snap ring missing?

 

[Phreakish]

If I am not mistaken the rear bearing determines that.
You might have a worn one, or the snap ring missing?

I've been looking at the manual and diagrams and came to the same conclusion. Either the rear bearing retaining clip in the housing or the one on the shaft is missing or worse.. Reassuring to hear similar from someone else ;)

We'll pull the rear housing next week and take a look. I'm leaning towards the retaining clip in the housing being gone, doesn't seem like a pressed bearing would slip back and forth like this... Worst case it's gone. Best it's there but somehow not seated. There's no shrapnel in the oil, so I don't think it got ground up.

 

[TrailBeast]

I've been looking at the manual and diagrams and came to the same conclusion. Either the rear bearing retaining clip in the housing or the one on the shaft is missing or worse.. Reassuring to hear similar from someone else ;)

We'll pull the rear housing next week and take a look. I'm leaning towards the retaining clip in the housing being gone, doesn't seem like a pressed bearing would slip back and forth like this... Worst case it's gone. Best it's there but somehow not seated. There's no shrapnel in the oil, so I don't think it got ground up.

It could very well be the outer retainer ring missing and you are correct about a pressed bearing not moving that much (unless it's worn really bad)
There should also be a heavy duty snap ring around the output shaft, and sometimes a guy might not find the right bearing and put one in that's narrower so it does what yours is doing.
I'm sure you'll see the problem when you get there now, because normally the output shaft only moves in and out very little at all.
(only what play there is in the bearing)
Find what's letting it move and I bet you solve the problem.

 

[Phreakish]

It could very well be the outer retainer ring missing and you are correct about a pressed bearing not moving that much (unless it's worn really bad)
There should also be a heavy duty snap ring around the output shaft, and sometimes a guy might not find the right bearing and put one in that's narrower so it does what yours is doing.
I'm sure you'll see the problem when you get there now, because normally the output shaft only moves in and out very little at all.
(only what play there is in the bearing)
Find what's letting it move and I bet you solve the problem.

Good point on bearing thickness.

Yeah, I was surprised by the movement when I noticed it. It's a lot.. Which also explains second gear kicking back out, but the gears looking brand new. The only 'old' part in this thing is supposedly the reconditioned cases. Everything else looks, feels, and smells new.

At least we have a clue, now let's hope the fix isn't too awful.

 

[j par]

I think I remember that snap ring being a bit of a pain. Probably not enough time for the loose shaft to cause an oil leak. But it's a little easier to change the tail seal on the bench.

 

[Phreakish]

I think I remember that snap ring being a bit of a pain. Probably not enough time for the loose shaft to cause an oil leak. But it's a little easier to change the tail seal on the bench.

Yeah, it maybe has 5 miles on it trying to diagnose.

 

[AJ/FormS]

I think you guys are on the right track.
It definitely sounds like the 2nd gear is running away from the brass.And if it did that just once, then very likely the brass would become miss-located from the struts. And then there would no longer be any synchronization going on.
So whether it's the wrong bearing or an out-of-place snapring it's hard to say, but if the shaft moves forward and back, then there is nothing to do but take it down and apart: cuz that should NOT be happening and it's not fixable in-frame. One or all of you guys is/are right

 

[Phreakish]

So we pulled the tailshaft housing. Sure enough, the bearing was kicked out from the snap ring by .100" or more.

So we pulled it completely, made sure the bore was clean/clear and then put the mainshaft back into place. The snap ring will seat, but it's really tough to tell if it's fully seated the whole circumference. We're worried that if it isn't, the whole shaft will just pop forward again. Any tips?

 

[TrailBeast]

So we pulled the tailshaft housing. Sure enough, the bearing was kicked out from the snap ring by .100" or more.

So we pulled it completely, made sure the bore was clean/clear and then put the mainshaft back into place. The snap ring will seat, but it's really tough to tell if it's fully seated the whole circumference. We're worried that if it isn't, the whole shaft will just pop forward again. Any tips?

Got any way to sand that snap ring down a little?
Or are you real steady with a bench grinder and able to keep your knuckles out of it. ?
I have shaved them down using the side of the wheel.

Ordering a new thinner snap ring would do it, but that's a PIA.

 

[Phreakish]

Oh, the ring snaps in OK. It's not entirely tight (where it has to be forced into the bearing groove), but since there's only the one gap at 12 o'clock, it's tough to tell or feel if the whole ring is snapped into the bearing groove. Seems like when I press on one side of the clip to rotate it, it will jump right back out. Not confidence inspiring...

I've taken a rubber mallet to the end of the output shaft to see if I could 'unseat' the mainshaft now and it doesn't seem to want to budge. So.. fingers are crossed, but was hoping there might be some trick to it, or way to ensure it seats fully ;)

 

[TrailBeast]

Oh, the ring snaps in OK. It's not entirely tight (where it has to be forced into the bearing groove), but since there's only the one gap at 12 o'clock, it's tough to tell or feel if the whole ring is snapped into the bearing groove. Seems like when I press on one side of the clip to rotate it, it will jump right back out. Not confidence inspiring...

I've taken a rubber mallet to the end of the output shaft to see if I could 'unseat' the mainshaft now and it doesn't seem to want to budge. So.. fingers are crossed, but was hoping there might be some trick to it, or way to ensure it seats fully ;)

Ok, so in that case you put the snap ring in a vice and close it down tighter.

The small ones you can just pinch tighter closed, but the big ones you can put in the vise differently.
Say the handle of the vise is facing straight at you, and you put the ring vertical in the ends of the jaws so that about 1 inch of the snap ring is sticking up out of the jaws and arched away from the front.
Then you give it an appropriate smack on the outside of the ring right down next to the jaw of the vise.
Larger rings tend to want to get unflat when bent over too much of a length so just do an inch spot and then another inch till you are all the way to the other end of the ring.
Basically you are just coaxing it closed a bit more.

All this if I understand that the ring goes into the groove, but acts like it's a little too big around.
If it's hard to get it in the groove acts like it's a little to thick to trust it to stay down in the groove, then the grinder. (or maybe both)

 

[AJ/FormS]

Do not reassemble the box until the large snapring pops in properly.
Remove the m/s and install the snapring into the empty hole, to see if in fact it will install properly. If it pops right in, measure the gap between the legs and let that be your guide at reassembly time. If it does not pop right in find our why and fix it.
If it does pop right in, perhaps the rear bearing is too wide; that should show up as a non-fitting small snapring behind the bearing on the m/s. And you did not mention that,So assuming the bearing is correct, you will need to check the back of the bore in the extension, to make sure there are no burrs back there. I say all this cuz that back bearing is special to the A833 and not often available from a local jobber except by special order.So measure carefully.The snapring should lay dead flat on a sheet of glass.The groove needs to be cleaned out.
So having proved all the parts are correct,and everything is clean, reassemble it and smack the legs with a drift-punch, until the leg-gap is up to the previously measured gap. Now you KNOW it's in there correctly.
Then reassemble the box with confidence.Make sure all the brass rings are properly indexed on the struts, and that the energizer springs are properly lcated.
All the best to you
FWIW
I have rebuilt many dozens of those A833s and have never had a problem with that snapring. So you are the first I've heard of. Please post what you find so I can learn too.

 

[Phreakish]

I may be unclear, I should take pictures.

This trans has the 308 bearing, which you have to 'spread' to install, not the one that you clamp down 'smaller' to install. The right is plenty 'tight'. Meaning the gap between the two 'ears' is small when there's no bearing in it, and it grasps the bearing well. There's a groove on the OD of the bearing, the internal groove of the extension housing is wider than the ring is thick. The groove in the bearing fits the ring pretty well.

When we installed the mainshaft, it seats but the ring is behind (toward the output shaft) the groove in the bearing. It can be pushed forward, as it's obviously designed to. It's just hard to tell if it's in the groove around the whole circumference of the bearing.

 

[AJ/FormS]

That large snapring with the ears does not go in the bearing groove, it goes in front of the bearing after the bearing has already slid into the housing.It is quite tricky to install.

Oh wait, this is a longshaft. Sorry! I screwed up.
Yes on the longshafts the snapring does go in the bearing groove as the bearing passes by, and then it snaps shut. On this type it's hard to imagine it screwing up, but since it has already happened once, I would still fit the snapring to the bearing, to be sure the snapring bottoms in the groove.And fully grips the bearing all the way around. And the snapring still has to lay deadflat on a sheet of glass. And on this type you can prove it is properly located after it is installed by pinching the ears with a pliers and watching to see that it does not bounce back when the pliers is released, or at least does not bounce back much.
Sorry about the confusion. I was stuck in A-body mode.

 

[Phreakish]

I would still fit the snapring to the bearing, to be sure the snapring bottoms in the groove.And fully grips the bearing all the way around. And the snapring still has to lay deadflat on a sheet of glass. And on this type you can prove it is properly located after it is installed by pinching the ears with a pliers and watching to see that it does not bounce back when the pliers is released, or at least does not bounce back much.
Sorry about the confusion. I was stuck in A-body mode.

Bingo! Yeah, that's what we're doing now. Sanding on a sheet of glass to fit it. It fits the bearing great, but won't seat once in the tailshaft. There's a little overlap there it would seem. Not a shocker, really.

We measured the gap at the ears when it's on the bearing and fully seat outside the tail housing. Now we're working it so that it will seat like that once installed.

Will get back to it tomorrow, and hopefully have it sealed back up and ready for install on Wednesday.