Just wondering....have some blue smoke out the back....

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318MoparGuy

318MoparGuy

MoparHokie
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on startup and idling and acceleration. After researching, it looks like it's pointing toward worn valve (seals) guides. Sound right? Heads are 1971 pre-smog heads as per PO and since no mention was made of putting hardened seats in exhaust valves, I figured that as long as the valve area was apart, I might as well do those too....do you agree? Engine is a stock 1983 318 automatic with approx. 60 lbs. oil pressure....would worn valve guides allow engine to hold 60 lbs. pressure? As I recently got car and don't have any of the required tools or compressor to do at home, what can I expect as an approximate cost for machine shop to do it (both sides)? I live in the Charlotte ,NC area and assumed doing both sides is the correct way to do it as just doing one side would put unequal pressure on undone side...correct??? If anyone lives in the area, I would gladly pay you for your time and would really like to learn some inside engine things as I have no experience. I watched a video of the process and it doesn't look too hard...just one cylinder at a time. What brand valve guides do you like and I read that some folks don't even put them on the exhaust side because it actually helps with lubrication there...Is that true? Thanks in advance to all for their responses and thoughts....HAPPY TURKEY DAY TO ALL AND GOBBLE TILL YOU WOBBLE!!!
All the Best,
Greg
 
do you use exsesiv oil ? dose it smoke when you start it or all the time? worn out valve guides will not effect oil pressure and you should probable pull the heads and start looking around, but if no extra oil is being consumed it may be carb problems
 
Yeah, do both heads. You could do a compression and a leak down test, but you're having the work done on them anyway. Or instead of having the work done, buy reman'd heads from a reputable, or at least a parts store you are confident about. Unless you have some ported heads, then you'll want to keep them. One good thing about the leak down test is you should be able to see if your rings are ok. Wait for more opinions, I know others know a lot more. Oh, if your guides are bad, it will belch out a big ball of smoke at start up, then go away. If rings, it will smoke all the time. Either way, if it is either of those two, you will go through more oil. It will get worse.
 
A compression test or leak-down test would be a proper start.

Does the smoke get worse when going down a steep hill w/throttle closed during engine braking?
 
Yes a compression check for a start.
So, you have 71 heads on a 83 engine?
My memory says that hardened valve seats weren't "standard" until 73.
But a "burned" valve is not what I'd think of with smoke.
That would be a compression problem and would cause other things.
And I may be bass ackwards but I'd also say valve "seals" would smoke after it runs for a few minutes when the oil has time to start flowing to the rockers/rods.
A ring problem would smoke at start up and all that time.
Seals are not the same thing as "guides".
Seals can be replaced "in situ",(without pulling the heads) But you don't even have a compressor to do that?
And if the heads are that old, they probably should be pulled for other reasons.
Better people will follow, I'm sure.
 
Bad valve guide seals tend to show up on initial start up (oil drools down the valve and pools in the port to be burned on start up) or as was stated on deceleration from highway speeds with the throttle closed as the manifold vacuum is at its highest and draws oil past the seal. You can change the valve guide seals (but not the guides) without a compressor by feeding some small diameter rope into the spark plug hole (tie the end onto something so that you dont drop it all the way in) and then carefully rotate the engine so that the piston pushes the rope up against the valves.

If it smokes all the time you likely have bad rings and need a bore & rebuild.
 
K.O. SWINGER said:
do you use exsesiv oil ? dose it smoke when you start it or all the time? worn out valve guides will not effect oil pressure and you should probable pull the heads and start looking around, but if no extra oil is being consumed it may be carb problems
Click to expand...

I just put a brand new Edelbrock 1406 on the Ed Performer intake, so I would not think it's that....but maybe it needs some more fine tuning...Will check oil useage, but don't put many miles on car.

Thanks very much for your input.
 
Oklacarcollecto said:
Getting a good set of heads that already are ready would most likely be your best bet.
Click to expand...

Any ideas what machine shop would approx. cost to do valve seals vs. cost of getting new heads...trying to keep costs down and use $$$ most efficiently...Thanks for your help, Greg
 
Louie70Dart said:
Yeah, do both heads. You could do a compression and a leak down test, but you're having the work done on them anyway. Or instead of having the work done, buy reman'd heads from a reputable, or at least a parts store you are confident about. Unless you have some ported heads, then you'll want to keep them. One good thing about the leak down test is you should be able to see if your rings are ok. Wait for more opinions, I know others know a lot more. Oh, if your guides are bad, it will belch out a big ball of smoke at start up, then go away. If rings, it will smoke all the time. Either way, if it is either of those two, you will go through more oil. It will get worse.
Click to expand...

Don't have a big ball of smoke at start up, so hopefully guides are ok...Any idea what approx. cost of ring job would be? Thanks, Greg
 
adriver said:
Yes a compression check for a start.
So, you have 71 heads on a 83 engine?
My memory says that hardened valve seats weren't "standard" until 73.
But a "burned" valve is not what I'd think of with smoke.
That would be a compression problem and would cause other things.
And I may be bass ackwards but I'd also say valve "seals" would smoke after it runs for a few minutes when the oil has time to start flowing to the rockers/rods.
A ring problem would smoke at start up and all that time.
Seals are not the same thing as "guides".
Seals can be replaced "in situ",(without pulling the heads) But you don't even have a compressor to do that?
And if the heads are that old, they probably should be pulled for other reasons.
Better people will follow, I'm sure.
Click to expand...

Engine idles fine, so I don't think it's a burned/hung up valve. What brands do you like for new valve seals? thanks...
 
d55dave said:
Bad valve guide seals tend to show up on initial start up (oil drools down the valve and pools in the port to be burned on start up) or as was stated on deceleration from highway speeds with the throttle closed as the manifold vacuum is at its highest and draws oil past the seal. You can change the valve guide seals (but not the guides) without a compressor by feeding some small diameter rope into the spark plug hole (tie the end onto something so that you dont drop it all the way in) and then carefully rotate the engine so that the piston pushes the rope up against the valves.

If it smokes all the time you likely have bad rings and need a bore & rebuild.
Click to expand...
Thanks Dave for the rope trick info and a HAPPY TURKEY DAY TO ALL......Greg
 
lol. It always looks easy when I'm watching someone who knows how to do it and has the proper tools to do the job.

Neither ring or valve guide and seal issues will adversely affect oil pressure. Valve guides and seals will smoke on startup and on-the-road deceleration when they are going bad. When the rings are going bad, it will smoke all the time. Oil consumption will increase as well since it is being burned and sent out the pipe.
 
Thanks to all who responded and what would a decent set of "ready" stock heads cost? What brandlines do you trust for everyday dependability?
 
318MoparGuy said:
Thanks to all who responded and what would a decent set of "ready" stock heads cost? What brandlines do you trust for everyday dependability?
Click to expand...

Mopar. IMO you're going to be money ahead if the existing heads are removed and taken to a good machine shop. Have them do a three-angle valve job and fit hardened valve seats in the head. A set of LA-Max heads from Indy will run $1K. You should be able to get your own heads re-worked for a third of that.

As for good machine shops, you're in the heart of NASCAR country. It's not racing season either, so I'd think that they would appreciate the work.
 
2 Darts said:
Mopar. IMO you're going to be money ahead if the existing heads are removed and taken to a good machine shop. Have them do a three-angle valve job and fit hardened valve seats in the head. A set of LA-Max heads from Indy will run $1K. You should be able to get your own heads re-worked for a third of that.

As for good machine shops, you're in the heart of NASCAR country. It's not racing season either, so I'd think that they would appreciate the work.
Click to expand...

Thanks 2Darts for the info. As I am learning engine terms, could you explain what a three-angle valve job is...what get's replaced /modified during the process and since the 318 is a cruiser, would doing that particular type of valve job positively or negatively gas mileage? FYI the PO put a mild Summit hydraulic cam in and an Ed Performer dual plane intake on it. I just put on a Ed 1406 (600 cfm). I appreciate your time and also anyone else who has and /or will chime in with their thoughts. I will start asking around, but does anyone know of any good machine shops in a 25 mile or so radius of Charlotte,NC?
Thanks as always,
Greg
 
if you want to test the guides get up to speed (55 or so) and then just let off the gas and watch for it to really smoke, if it does its the guides. By doing this you create a very high vacuum situation in the intake ports and will suck oil thru the guides if it can.
 
3 angle valve job eases transition from runner to valve. A 3 angle valve job is simpler to do than a 5 angle job. On a 3 angle valve job the top angle is 30, the blue angle is 45 and the bottom is 60. On a street car, the difference between a 3 angle valve job and simple seating of the valves might not be noticeable in acceleration or fuel economy.

How it's done.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWQxEmDWBSY"]3 angle valve job - YouTube[/ame]

valve%20seat.jpg
 
To go in a different direction it could also be a bad intake gasket. If the gasket is not properly sealing it can draw oil from the lifter valley and send it directly into the combustion chambers where it is burned. This will cause the motor to smoke all the time, and worse under power. JMO
 
1968dartman said:
To go in a different direction it could also be a bad intake gasket. If the gasket is not properly sealing it can draw oil from the lifter valley and send it directly into the combustion chambers where it is burned. This will cause the motor to smoke all the time, and worse under power. JMO
Click to expand...


Good point!
Pull the plugs, it will tell you which cyl's are have a oil burning problem.
 
1968dartman said:
To go in a different direction it could also be a bad intake gasket. If the gasket is not properly sealing it can draw oil from the lifter valley and send it directly into the combustion chambers where it is burned. This will cause the motor to smoke all the time, and worse under power. JMO
Click to expand...

Thank you 1968dartman for throwing another possibility out there and as next poster said, I will pull all plugs to check for oil useage areas. Thank you...I see you are from NB, my Mom grew up in Argentia,NFLD and the entire town was relocated before WWII so it could set up as an Army Air Force base as the next war was on the horizon. The whole place was leveled (so many generations grew up there and it was VERY upsetting to the townspeople...My grandfather Phillip O'Reilly owned the general store and livery stable there). I heard many sad stories about the whole thing. Thanks again for your help,
Greg
 
1968dartman said:
To go in a different direction it could also be a bad intake gasket. If the gasket is not properly sealing it can draw oil from the lifter valley and send it directly into the combustion chambers where it is burned. This will cause the motor to smoke all the time, and worse under power. JMO
Click to expand...

X2 I removed the stock 2bbl and put an aluminum intake on a 318.
Done 100's of intake changes in the past,
This time I used a thin metal gasket, just because I had it, coated with copper spray.
The engine smoked like a freight train, gasket leaked on #8 cylinder.
Changed it to a composite fel-pro and the issue went away.
 
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