Woodys_Cuda
Ontario, Canada
Ouch! lol.
* Looks at poll results *.
* Looks at poll results *.
MSD yay or nay
- Thread starter Woodys_Cuda
- Start date
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MopaR&D
Nerd Member
There's a great Engine Masters episode I watched recently about ignition systems. They basically proved that your engine determines what "level" of ignition components you need. They took a stroker big block Ford and initially ran it on crappy old plug wires, plugs, points distributor, junkyard coil etc. and it ran fine until about 4,000 RPM. It wasn't until the engine was revving past that speed where a better control box and distributor kept it from misfiring and losing power. It made the exact same HP and torque from the start of the pull to about 4,000 RPM whether running basic old stock stuff or fancy MSD box, coil and distributor. Multi-spark can help MPG and throttle response at part-throttle and low RPM on the street but does basically nothing for WOT especially where specifically MSD-brand boxes don't multi-spark over 4000 RPM or so.
OEMs don't bother with multi-spark on modern engines which should say something. Doesn't mean it doesn't work but the gains aren't worth the added complexity and expense on a street vehicle meant to go 80,000+ miles with no maintenance on the ignition system. They went to coil-on-plug because the fancier "precious metal" spark plugs need more energy to create spark and it's easier to electronically control spark timing on the fly. The iridium, platinum etc. plugs are only used because they last a lot longer than copper-core plugs. MSD just did a really good job of marketing their technology to where every high-performance/racing aftermarket ignition system "needs" to have multi-spark capability for racers and hot-rodders to pay attention to it.
In a nutshell, an MSD-type control box (or any ignition "upgrade" for that matter) won't do jack for WOT performance unless the stock system isn't up to the task of supporting the RPMs and cylinder pressures. To be fair, points-type ignition systems are terrible for high-compression/boosted and high-RPM engines. Factory electronic systems are pretty dang good for the vast majority of performance engines, the only problem is it's tough to find reliable and capable aftermarket replacements for "vintage" electronic ignition parts these days. We've all seen how current replacement Mopar ECUs can be crap right out of the box.
OEMs don't bother with multi-spark on modern engines which should say something. Doesn't mean it doesn't work but the gains aren't worth the added complexity and expense on a street vehicle meant to go 80,000+ miles with no maintenance on the ignition system. They went to coil-on-plug because the fancier "precious metal" spark plugs need more energy to create spark and it's easier to electronically control spark timing on the fly. The iridium, platinum etc. plugs are only used because they last a lot longer than copper-core plugs. MSD just did a really good job of marketing their technology to where every high-performance/racing aftermarket ignition system "needs" to have multi-spark capability for racers and hot-rodders to pay attention to it.
In a nutshell, an MSD-type control box (or any ignition "upgrade" for that matter) won't do jack for WOT performance unless the stock system isn't up to the task of supporting the RPMs and cylinder pressures. To be fair, points-type ignition systems are terrible for high-compression/boosted and high-RPM engines. Factory electronic systems are pretty dang good for the vast majority of performance engines, the only problem is it's tough to find reliable and capable aftermarket replacements for "vintage" electronic ignition parts these days. We've all seen how current replacement Mopar ECUs can be crap right out of the box.
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
The dyno can not duplicate exactly what happens in the car.
I have done some ignition testing on the dyno and my results did not match what Engine Masters found.
MopaR&D
Nerd Member
Well sure, I think it goes without saying that anything done on a dyno won't necessarily reflect the same in a car but it still shows similar trends. What did you find in your testing that was different than the Engine Masters results?
I personally end up going to multi-spark setup (not MSD brand if I can help it, I don't trust their quality and value isn't great) with electronic distributor in my classic Mopars anyway because it eliminates the ignition system as being a potential source of issues. I have a Summit brand billet distributor with vacuum advance in the "medium" built (~450 HP) 360 in my Duster because it's so much easier to precisely adjust and tune compared to a factory one and I'm about to put one in the mostly-stock 360 in my D200 pickup. The process of modifying the mechanical advance plate in a factory distributor with epoxy or welding is just a time-consuming pain in the butt to me. Not to mention ballast resistors are also annoying and pointless in this day and age IMO.
FWIW I bought a Mallory HyFire-6A box back in 2008 before they were bought out by Holley/MSD and it's been working like a champ ever since. If you can find one of those older Mallory boxes I highly recommend them. I think I already mentioned the Pertronix Digital HP box, that's what I have in my truck and it's been great, only had it for a couple years though so can't speak for its long-term durability.
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
I have tested a worked over MSD 6 dyno box against an out of the box Mallory HyFire 6 (685) box with the correct coil and the Mallory beat the MSD everywhere by a 10 or 12 HP average.
That particular MSD box was used on literally hundreds of engines and when the guy wanted a bit better number he hooked up that box.
There is no such thing as too much ignition. You can have misfires (and we all do) at any RPM and it will show up in higher BSFC numbers even if it doesn’t show up in power. A miss or even a late burn because the spark didn’t quite get the burn started well enough is wasting fuel.
Of course, some of that is mixture preparation but I don’t care how good someone is the dyno (most dyno’s we have access to) can not duplicate G forces that occur in the car and the effect a GOOD, functional hood scoop causes.
Spending time getting the fuel prepared to burn is worth every second and every penny, it still can’t compensate for the above mentioned issues.
Darin Morgan said in a webinar that they picked up 20 foot pounds of torque across the board just by moving the carbs .060 forward from what they thought was the optimal location.
Evidently (going off my memory because I don’t want to sort through my notes) they had lined the venturi over the port exactly on line with the intake valve. 2 X 4 tunnel ram Pro Stock stuff but I have no doubt that Comp stuff is the same and even bracket engines have the same issues but not to the extent of a PS engine because most bracket guys don’t generate PS level G forces.
Anyway, I think he said they were seeing things that didn’t make sense so they decided to move the carbs forward just .060 of the valve. And it made more power and went quicker in the car.
The point is you can prep the fuel as best as humanly possible and still not get it perfect in the combustion chamber because the engine isn’t stationary.
So any time you can add ignition power you may be able to find some power. And even if you don’t find some power, look at the BSFC numbers. They will tell you how efficient things are. Two engines with the same power and power curves can have different BSFC numbers.
The one with the better (lower) BSFC numbers should be quicker IF the chassis and drive train are correct.
Carnut68
Well-Known Member
How can you tell the difference between an old and new Mallory box?
Hype. You got that right.
MILO
Well-Known Member
I like Hyper that is what my 273 is
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