my nightmere (msd)

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mopowermatt

mopowermatt
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ok I didn't want to ask this question because it seams repetative but here it goes.

I have a '64 dart. It had a three wire alternator on it when I recieved it with a slant six. I converted it to a 360 with an msd 6a. I started it last mon. and I even drove it down the block for 1 min. but then it died out. THen with a couple of tries it started up real ruff and barely stumbled up the hill to my house. Now whenever I try to start it I only turns over with no firing. Every now and then like 3 cylinders will fire. But that's it.

I have the thick red going straight to the battery. I have the small red going to the thick dark blue wire that goes to the ignition switch (has power when the key is on) the green and violet go to the dist. and the orange and black go to the coil it's all the same as the msd diagram says I tried running both red wires (constant and switched 12v) to constant 12v and it didn't work. The dist. is not 180 out. I tried a new coil. I took the ballast resiser out and just connected all four wires that were going into and out of it together. I left the little stock ignition box plugged in because it was when I ran it and it doesn't change anything when I unplug it.

I really need help on this. I need to get this car going soon I'm sooooo anxious. I don't even care about the msd. i would do it with stock ignition if I new how to wire it up with electronic ignition. I've starred at this thing for like 8 hours and I still can't fix it.
 
Did it run good for the minute that it ran after you converted it? If so the wiring was probably right. You may have just lost power somewhere leading to the balast resistor. Have you checked to make sure you have power at the ballast resistor with a test light or meter? If you do have power there the only other possibilities are a possible bad pickup in the distributor which you can check by doing an ohm test with an ohm meter. Should have about 600-700 ohms across the leads or maybe you got a defective MSD box.

BTW: You are positive it don't have spark aren't you? A lack of fuel can cause a situation similiar to this also. (i.e. A clogged fuel filter) Have you had someone crank it over while you checked for spark under the hood to verify it has no spark?
 
what about the thick black wire? is it on a good ground ? is the smaller red going to 12 volts? is the blue wire 12 volts or is it less? unplug the the green and violet and put a jumper wire in there and then turn the key to on. you should see a spark when you move the jumper wire. do you have an electronic ignition distributor? are the green/violet wired backwards?
 
Hey Matt,

Check and see if the Distributor moved on you, I had that happen to me
in my Dart. Took it out for a test run and it was running good. I got on it
once and the power went away. I was able to get it home but it had no power. The distributor clamp was not tight enough. Have someone try to start
the car while you turn the distributor. By the way I am in Mira mesa.
Also the Antique drags are tommorrow at Barona. I will be there with my Dart

Matt
 
The dist. didn't move. I'm sure that the black wire is grounded good. ummm.... I think your right fishy68 I'm going to go buy an ohm meter and start testing this stuff. Also I will check to make sure I don't have spark. When I pull the throttle back I can see fuel shoot down into the carb, so I have fuel.

Oh yeah about that ballast I'm really confuesed about that I took it out and just connected the incoming wires to the outgoing. Could this burn up the msd? Should I hook it back up and run the small red wire from the msd to the 12 volt side of it? Also does anyone know what color wires go to which side of the ballast because I'm not sure I can put it back exactly right.

thanks guys
 
Ok I worked on it all day. I went and bought a msd digital 6-plus 350 bucks and it wasn't the msd box, because it did the same thing. I can't get power to the coil. I don't understand it. I have the small red wire hooked to the blue 12v wire that goes to the ballast. I have the 12v run to the battery in the trunk and the ground is grounded to a bolt going into the floorboard of the car. The coil wires are correct and so are the dist. I'm positive. I even tried to use a points dist. and it didn't work. I just can't get the thing to spark. The battery has like 12.50 volts but then when I turn the key the voltage drops at the blue wire to the switched 12v. So then I took the small red and just connected it to the constant 12v and it still did the same thing. I replaced all the plugs too. I almost feel like I need to replace the car it's either that or the mechanic.


I'm eager. I'm going to call the msd tech line tomorrow and see if they can help me with it. I'm really stoked about this new ignition though it seems a lot better than the 6a I had before...
 
Matt I don't think bypassing the ballast resistor would burn up the MSD box because my old Dakota didn't use a ballast resistor and it wasn't a problem with the MSD6A on it. Since your new MSD box did the same thing chances are your old one is good and the problem is elsewhere.

I'm sorry but I can't be much more help since I don't have a wiring diagram to go by but the only thing I can think of that you mentioned that I would question is you said your ground is grounded to a bolt going into the floorboard of the car. This isn't always the best place to ground something due to paint and/or corrosion causing a bad connection. Maybe check that good. Also is your ground wire from the back of the engine block to the firewall in place? If that is missing that may be the problem since your grounded to the floor and not the engine block.
 
if your msd box is in the engine bay, run the big red to the starter and a better ground like fishy said. do you not get power at the + side of coil? do you get power at both sides of ballast resistor? 12v on 1 side, about 7-9 on the other? power @ bulkhead?
 
I was talking to the msd tech's today. I got a little closer but still no go. He was mentioning the ground wire situation also. He said run it back to the battery so I'm going to do that the next chance I get. I did like 10 test's they had me do. I took the coil wire off the dist. and put it next to a ground and then removed the dist. and spun it by hand and when I did this it would arc from the coil wire to the ground. so this tells us that everything is working. The car ran for about 5 sec after I tweeked with it all day but now I have to go to school and I probally won't get to work on it till thursday. I do have the engine ground hooked to the firewall.

redfastback I'll to those test's tomorrow but I'm pretty sure that I have power at all of those places.

another ruff day. I think this is like my fourth whole day spent on this thing....
 
All the wiring from the ballast resistor to the coil is not used with an MSD ignition. Whether you have the ballast resitor in or out makes no difference, it's not connected to anything in the ignition circuit when the MSD is being used, same for the stock ECU.

The only wires you should have connected to the coil are the orange and black wires, orange to coil + and black to coil -. The large black wire is tied to chassis ground. You indicate that it's on a screw into the floor. Do you have a ground strap from the block to the body of the car?

If all the connections are good I would look at the pickup in the distributor.
 
dgc333 said:
All the wiring from the ballast resistor to the coil is not used with an MSD ignition. Whether you have the ballast resitor in or out makes no difference, it's not connected to anything in the ignition circuit when the MSD is being used, same for the stock ECU.

The only wires you should have connected to the coil are the orange and black wires, orange to coil + and black to coil -. The large black wire is tied to chassis ground. You indicate that it's on a screw into the floor. Do you have a ground strap from the block to the body of the car?

If all the connections are good I would look at the pickup in the distributor.
Click to expand...

This is almost the same thing that happened to me. After I got the MSD all wired up correctly & the car was running great, went out to start it & no fire. Did all the test's & called msd's tech line, the pick up in the factory distributor went bad. Ordered a msd pro billet distributor & no problems since then. Oh by the way on mine the small red is hooked up to the wires that went to the ballast, which is no longer on the car.
 
yeah I think it's the dist. but I don't really have the money for a msd one so I'm going to get one from the junk yard. Do you think that those old distributors can't handle it or what? THANKS

-matt
 
Matt rather than buy an old used mostly used up junkyard part why don't you buy a BRAND NEW pickup coil at your auto supply store. It probably won't cost more and it'll be new. It's not hard to change and will surely out last the junkyard item with Lord knows how many miles on it.

BTW: I'd say it was just it's time to go. I doubt the MSD took it out.

Oh Yeah if you do decide to change the pickup yourself just note the reluctor position. The reluctor is the thing with 8 points on it that spins to make the pickup coil fire. It goes on 2 ways. One way is for a big block and one way is for a small block. If you put it on wrong it will put the rotor out of phase.
 
thanks fishy68 that sounds better. I'll go ahead and do that.

thanks
 
Hey Matt make sure the 12V switched wire you have the MSD hooked up to is actually getting 12V when you are cranking. I had mine hooked up like that and it wouldn't work cause the blue wire coming from the factory harness wasn't throwing 12V when the starter was cranking. I am not running the ballast resistor either......I also use the MSD billet dist too so that might make a difference.
 
duster318- I'm sure it's always 12v because I have both red wires hooked to the battery.

Today I tried a differnt distributor I had laying in the garage. I hooked it up, removed a spark plug, layed it on the header and spun the distributor with my hand and watched the spark plug fire so I know that I have ignition. I have no idea what the problem could be now. Could something have happened with that gear down inside the motor. The oil pump--- dist. drive gear could it have rounded off, too much raw mopar horsepower?( I wish)
 
I had to bug the 2 wires that originally went to the ballast resistor together, then run them to the coil and can the ballast resistor. I stared at that thing looked at wiring diagrams and drank nearly a case-o-beer before I had that thing figured out. Good luck you'll figure it out. :salut:
 
Hey Matt, this might be a long shot but when I started converting my old 440's with dual point ignition over to the Mopar Orange box electronic ignition the first thing I had to do was replace the old voltage regulator to the transistor unit. In effect it brought the battery voltage up to 13.5 volts which according to Direct Connection was required for the orange box ignition. Is there a chance that the MSD ignition requires 13.5 volts instead of the 12 volts you say you've measured at the battery. Also, if you haven't done it already connect your power to the starter, this keeps the wire length to a minimum and voltage drop, which is always a concern with long runs of wire, will be minimized. You say you've got the battery in the trunk. When I did that I used the heavy welding cable run inside 5/8 heater hose (stops rub-through) again to minimize voltage drop.:evil2:
 
OK Matt, I think I know what the problem is. I've seen it before. If you have spark from the coil, but no spark coming from the distributor your rotor is shorting out to your distributor driveshaft. The MSD ignition is way hotter than your stock ignition and the spark is finding it's way to ground through a crack or carbon trail that wouldn't cause a problem with a stock ignition. Replace your rotor.
 
have you had the distributor installed in the engine with the cap off and tried starting it to verify that it is turning? right now, of what i've read, you have spark. if you have fuel, that isn't your problem either. how old is this motor? timing chain jumped a tooth?
 
I'm wondering if the timing chain jumped a tooth also I think that is going to be the next thing I check tomorrow. I already watched the rotor spin while I cranked the motor over. I'm going to check the timing tomorrow

thanks
 
I figured it out.

I tested the motor to see if it had power and it did. the header bolt had 1.7 volts. I did have the motor grounded too. THe alternator was messed up. I had to disconnect the alternator and then it started for a little. Now I'm just having carb problems. Pain in the ***.
 
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