Oil pans

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chlngr1970

chlngr1970

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I see a lot about big block headers, K-frames, and such, but I don't see a lot about oil pans. I am building a Duster that is going to be powered by a stroker 400. I have a 187 oil pan, but am wondering, do I need a different oil pan for a "performance" motor? Would I be better off using the 187 for a "restomod" and getting a higher volume oil pan for a motor that is considerably more powerful than a stocker? I have cruised through the threads and haven't really seen much talk about oil pans. Is this something I am just missing while being mezmorized by all the toys I see? That doesn't surprise me :D

Let me know what my oiling options are.

j
 
With the good MP windage tray and a STOCK VOLUME oil pump, the stock pan will support 700 HP, maybe more. You can use a high pressure pump, but "I" would advise against a high volume pump with a stock pan. Just my opinion.
 
I run a stock oil pan with a high volume pump. The oil pressure is 75 PSI with no problems on my 500 HP motor. I would not use a high pressure pump. Everyone is different, I always use high volume pump, the more oil, the better. I do use a windage tray.
 
here is something I found while researching oil pumps...

Advantages, Myths and Fables of High Volume Oil Pumps



Most of stock automobile engines are designed to operate from idle to 4,500 rpm. The original volume and pressure oil pump will work fine in this type of application. As the demands on the engine increase so does the demands on the oiling system and pump.





The oil pump's most difficult task is to supply oil to the connecting rod bearing that is the farthest from the pump. To reach this bearing, the oil travels from three to four feet, turns numerous square corners through small holes in the crankshaft to the rod bearing. The rod bearing doesn't help matters. It is traveling in a circie which means centrifugal force is pulling the oil out of the bearing.
A 350 Chevy has a 3.481˝ stroke and a 2.111˝ rod journal. The outer edge of the journal travels 17.531˝ every revolution. At 1,000 rpm, the outer edge is traveling at 16.6 mph and 74.7 mph at 4,500 rpm. If we take this engine to 6,500 the outer edge is up to 107.9 and at 8,500 it is 141.1 mph. Now imagine driving a car around a curve at those speeds and you can feel the centrifugal force. Now imagine doing it around a circie with a 5.581˝ diameter.
The size of the gears or rotors determines the amount of oil a pump can move at any given rpm. Resistance to this movement creates the pressure. If a pump is not large enough to meet the demands of the engine, there wiii not be any pressure. Or if the demands of the engine are increased beyond the pumps capabilities there wiii be a loss of oll pressure. This is where high volume pumps come in; they take care of any increased demands of the engine.
Increases in the engine's oil requirements come from higher rpm, being able to rev faster, increased bearing clearances, remote oil cooler and/or filter and any combination of these. Most high volume pumps also have a increase In pressure to help get the oil out to the bearings faster.
That is what a high voiume pump will do. Now let us consider what it will not do:
1. It will not replace a rebuild in a worn-out engine. It may increase pressure but the engine is still worn-out.
2. It will not pump the oil pan dry. Both solid and hydraulic lifters have metering valves to limit fiow of the oil to the top of the engine. If a pan Is pumped dry, it is because the holes that drain oil back to the pan are plugged. If the high volume pump is also higher pressure, there wiii be a slight increase in fiow to the top.
3. It will not wear out distributor gears. The load on the gear is directly related to the resistance to flow. Oil pressure is the measure of resistance to fiow. The Ford 427 FE "side oiler" used a pump with relief vaive set at 125 psi and it used a standard distributor gear. Distributor gear failures are usually caused by a worn gear on a new cam gear and/or worn bearings allowing misalignment.
—Tech Tip courtesy of Melling Engine Parts
Click to expand...
 
Not sure how much difference it makes, but in regards to number 2 in the post above...The LA engine doesn't oil the top end through the lifters. It's oiled through passages in the block & heads.
 
chlngr1970 said:
I see a lot about big block headers, K-frames, and such, but I don't see a lot about oil pans. I am building a Duster that is going to be powered by a stroker 400. I have a 187 oil pan, but am wondering, do I need a different oil pan for a "performance" motor? Would I be better off using the 187 for a "restomod" and getting a higher volume oil pan for a motor that is considerably more powerful than a stocker? I have cruised through the threads and haven't really seen much talk about oil pans. Is this something I am just missing while being mezmorized by all the toys I see? That doesn't surprise me :D

Let me know what my oiling options are.

j
Click to expand...

The 187 or 699 are the OEM pans you want for a B or RB into an A Body. They have the clearance dent on the side which clears the idler arm. That being said very few of those pans came with acceleration or deceleration baffles and you definetely need that. I run a HV pump in my 383, shifting at 6200, and ran into a problem with the mopar windage tray. The oil return slots were not large enough and numerous enough and my oil pressure was dropping 10#'s at high RPM, seems the oil wasn't getting back to the sump fast enough and running out the back of the tray. Switched to Milodon and problem gone. Also make sure you get the tray designed for the stroked engines. If capacity is a concern take your 187 pan to a tin basher and add 2-3", dependant on ground clearance, to the sump. I added 2 inches.
 
I'm looking at running a 187 pan and stock stroke 440 source windage tray on my 383 Duster build. I haven't decided on the oil pump yet HV or SV.. I've read some Mopar mag article which recommend high volume for high RPM applications (7000+) I don't plan of spinning it up past 6500, but though it might be a good idea to run a HV just in case, but is it too risky on a stock pan?
 
Geez...I never said anything about pumping the pan dry. All I said was that it was "my" opinion not to go high volume with a stock pan. It's just not necessary. Also, the high volume pump is supposed to have the good hardened oil pump drive, which is an added expense. Because of the pump's increased volume, it exerts higher loads on the drive gear and shaft. While I believe there'll be no damage to the distributor gear, I have seen some broken stock oil pump drive shafts using a high volume pump. don't know if there were other contributing factors, but I've seen it more than once. They make hardened drive assemblies for some reason. Maybe that's it, but WTF do i know? The stock pump actually requires less power to drive, and you'll SEE the difference on a dyno. Believe it. Might be splittin hairs, but it's a fact. The stock pump will do the job. That's all I was sayin.
 
OK, is there a specific part number for a larger capacity oil pan, that won't get smashed when I pass over a speed bump, and still clear the steering on the Duster? ( MAN I HATE THOSE THINGS! disgust ) I hadn't got to the oil pump yet, but that is good info. Thanks :D I am hoping to pick up the stroker kit this spring, if I don't spend the money on something else ;)

j
 
There's not a ready made big block A body high capacity oil pan being produced by anyone that I know of. Milodon has one they list that says it will work and if you talk to them they will tell you it will work, but it does not. It lacks the indention for the idler arm, so there is no way in hell it will work. Only way I know of would be to mod a stock 187 or 699 pan. Just out of curiousity, what are you building that will require a high capacity pan.....or do you want one just "because"?
 
I am hoping to put together about 5-550 HP Stroker motor. I was just wondering if I would need a higher capacity than what seems like such a small oil pan can hold. I am comparing this to a stock truck pan FWIW. So, the 187 should be plenty, you think?

j
 
chlngr1970 said:
I am hoping to put together about 5-550 HP Stroker motor. I was just wondering if I would need a higher capacity than what seems like such a small oil pan can hold. I am comparing this to a stock truck pan FWIW. So, the 187 should be plenty, you think?

j
Click to expand...

A stock 187 pan with a stock pump and pickup will be more oiling system than your engine will ever use. It will be fine. Having said that, build it how you want it. You want a high capacity pan and high volume pump? Go for it. It wont hurt anything as long as you run the good hardened drive gear and shaft. It will cost you a little in power to drive that pump (you'll never feel the difference) but it's just not necessary. I would save that money and use it elsewhere. That's all I'm tryin to say.
 
Cool! Thanks for the info. That is pretty much what I was looking for. The 187 pan being good enough for a 5-550HP motor is good news, as I have one :D That makes it easier for me to spend the money elsewhere.

On the topic of the oil pump ( all I have is stock pumps now ) there is no real need for a high volume/pressure pump for, again, 5-550 HP. Stock should suffice? I just want to make sure I understand that ( I'm kinda thick sometimes :D )

j
 
chlngr1970 said:
Cool! Thanks for the info. That is pretty much what I was looking for. The 187 pan being good enough for a 5-550HP motor is good news, as I have one :D That makes it easier for me to spend the money elsewhere.

On the topic of the oil pump ( all I have is stock pumps now ) there is no real need for a high volume/pressure pump for, again, 5-550 HP. Stock should suffice? I just want to make sure I understand that ( I'm kinda thick sometimes :D )

j
Click to expand...

All I am doing with mine (it's already done, actually) is rebuild the stock pump. the Melling rebuild kit is K-63. It's available through O'Reilly's for like 25 bucks. It comes with the stock pressure relief spring and a high pressure relief spring, all the o-rings and the gasket and new rotors. I used the high pressure spring on mine. The pumps hardly EVER score the housings. The rotors always end up scored. I mean.....why the hell pay for anew pump for like 79 bucks when the kits are available and they are super easy to rebuild? And no, a high pressure NOR high volume pump is really necessary for what you wanna do. I went with the high pressure spring simply because that's what I wanted. Lastly, I recommend replacing the pump to block bolts with new grade eight bolts. they usually get really nasty. The bolts holding the pump together are usually ok.
 
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