Oil pumps again...

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Bakerlite said:
LOL, so the more pressure the pump has to produce, the less power it consumes.. Brilliant..
You should be working at NASA..
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So you have never tested it so it can’t be true. Got it.

The FACT is I have tested it. On my personal ****. And, for the record at 8500 105 psi was worth 15 hp. Could have been a bit more because that was 20 years ago.

I could walk up and adjust the pressure up and down while the engine was running.| can also tell you that under about 80 pounds it knocks the cam bearings out.

Of course, if you build low power junk **** then none of it matters.

And certainly it doesn’t matter because you say so.
 
forphorty said:
Well , I strongly recommend getting a MTOD subscription but you may not be able to in your country.... so if you can't , Enginemasters episode season 6 ep 93 . The Milodon was a horsepower eater.

View attachment 1715972502
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I'll stick with B. It works for me, always has.
I don't use full groove mains.
 
Rat Bastid said:
So you have never tested it so it can’t be true. Got it.

The FACT is I have tested it. On my personal ****. And, for the record at 8500 105 psi was worth 15 hp. Could have been a bit more because that was 20 years ago.

I could walk up and adjust the pressure up and down while the engine was running.| can also tell you that under about 80 pounds it knocks the cam bearings out.

Of course, if you build low power junk **** then none of it matters.

And certainly it doesn’t matter because you say so.
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I'd be inclined to take any testing, (factual or imagined) from an unqualified pudknocker with a grain of salt..
I got it, adding more load to the oil pump by increasing it's pressure frees up HP..
Just like it requires less effort to increase the line pressure in my braking system when I push the pedal down further.
As I said NASA are hiring.
 
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Bakerlite said:
I got it, adding more load to the oil pump by increasing it's pressure frees up HP..
Just like it requires less effort to increase the line pressure in my braking system when I push the pedal down further.
As I said NASA are hiring.
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So in your thinking an engine shouldn't have a camshaft, lifters, valves, valve springs, connecting rods, pistons, piston rings, crankshaft, timing gears or a timing chain. Might as well
All those take just the same or more effort than the oil pump .
Oh I forgot a distributor too, or alternator, water pump, power steering (yep).
 
Bakerlite said:
I'd be inclined to take any testing, (factual or imagined) from an unqualified pudknocker with a grain of salt..
I got it, adding more load to the oil pump by increasing it's pressure frees up HP..
Just like it requires less effort to increase the line pressure in my braking system when I push the pedal down further.
As I said NASA are hiring.
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Well, if the cam is riding in the bearings then what do you think? And if the rockers are grabbing the shafts, what do you think?

You have no clue what you are talking about, as usual.
 
Not joining/commenting on the above 'debate', but......

There are odd numbers bandied about for oil pump flow etc. The BB Ch must have one of the most restrictive inlet flow paths for the popular V8s. Long p/up tube, only about 3/8" internal diam. Then, when the oil gets to the block it has to negotiate a torturous path around a 90* bend with sharp edges. Sticking a HV pump & HP spring at the end of this invites sucking air into the system. Ch wisely increased the p/up diam for the hemi. As a comparison, the stock 60 lb pump on a Pontiac has a short J shaped p/up, about 6" long, 3/4" OD & 5/8" ID, smooth flowing.
 
MOPARMAGA said:
So in your thinking an engine shouldn't have a camshaft, lifters, valves, valve springs, connecting rods, pistons, piston rings, crankshaft, timing gears or a timing chain. Might as well
All those take just the same or more effort than the oil pump .
Oh I forgot a distributor too, or alternator, water pump, power steering (yep).
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Errr, no, that's not what I'm saying in my sarcastic remark.
 
Rat Bastid said:
Well, if the cam is riding in the bearings then what do you think? And if the rockers are grabbing the shafts, what do you think?
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First of all, the actual question was, "does a HV / HP use more engine HP"?.
Not "will a HV / HP pump free up HP by masking a mechanical issue in the engine".. so your post above is irrelevant..

That's why I said earlier about bench testing the pump, because the conditions are controlled and repeatable without having to factor in other elements/ issues from an engine that may skew the results..

Obviously if your seeing an increase in HP when adding more load via a HP / HV pump, then it's not some magic in the pump. Something else is going on..Maybe it's in the engine, maybe it's the test procedure, etc..
What do you do next??? Identify the actual issue? Fix/modify that issue and then reduce pump pressure/drag to free up even more HP, than just the band aid pump solution with sky high running pressures?? I'll let you work that one out on your own..
So obviously saying it's an "old wives tail" and then applying it to every situation is just stupid....and it's why you're a pudnocker.
 
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Bakerlite said:
First of all, the actual question was, "does a HV / HP use more engine HP"?.
Not "will a HV / HP pump free up HP by masking a mechanical issue in the engine".. so your post above is irrelevant..

That's why I said earlier about bench testing the pump, because the conditions are controlled and repeatable without having to factor in other elements/ issues from an engine that may skew the results..

Obviously if your seeing an increase in HP when adding more load via a HP / HV pump, then it's not some magic in the pump. Something else is going on..Maybe it's in the engine, maybe it's the test procedure, etc..
What do you do next??? Identify the actual issue? Fix/modify that issue and then reduce pump pressure/drag to free up even more HP, than just the band aid pump solution with sky high running pressures?? I'll let you work that one out on your own..
So obviously saying it's an "old wives tail" and then applying it to every situation is just stupid....and it's why you're a pudnocker.
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My test is only irrelevant because it doesn’t fit your narrative.

I’ll ask again, expecting the same answer. Have you personally tested oil pumps on a dyno? If you have, I’d love to hear your results. If not (which is exactly what I expect) then all you have is your ill founded notions.

To correct some of the bullshit above, one fix would have been roller cam bearings. Then I wouldn’t have had an issue with the valve spring loads showing the cam into the bearings, especially at low engine speeds. Of course, you’ve evidently built an engine with solid lifter over the nose spring loads as your seat pressure. In other words, I was running as much on the seat as a SFT has over the nose. That’s what it takes with a 59 degree LBA and making power at 8500.

As far as the rockers grabbing the shafts, it’s the same issue. I could have switched to a needle bearing rocker, but that would have required pushrod oiling and I’m against that in most cases.

Your evident lack of experience building a high rpm, high output (2 hp/cid or better) shows here clearly.

Obviously your mechanics license didn’t cover that.

Now go away. You add nothing to the thread.
 
Bewy said:
Not joining/commenting on the above 'debate', but......

There are odd numbers bandied about for oil pump flow etc. The BB Ch must have one of the most restrictive inlet flow paths for the popular V8s. Long p/up tube, only about 3/8" internal diam. Then, when the oil gets to the block it has to negotiate a torturous path around a 90* bend with sharp edges. Sticking a HV pump & HP spring at the end of this invites sucking air into the system. Ch wisely increased the p/up diam for the hemi. As a comparison, the stock 60 lb pump on a Pontiac has a short J shaped p/up, about 6" long, 3/4" OD & 5/8" ID, smooth flowing.
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Exactly. The inlet side of the pump is THE critical restriction on any pump. That’s why a mid or rear sump pan with a front mounted pump is stupid. Same as a rear mounted pump and a mid or front sump pan.

The longer the pickup tube, the greater the diameter it needs to be to reduce intake restriction.

Also of note is the difference in the pump output between a spur gear pump and a gerotor pump. The gerotor pump needs a greater cross section pickup tube by the very nature of its design. And the out put of the spur gear pump is smoother than the output of the gerotor pump. IMO, the HV pump helps to smooth the output of the gerotor pump.

High pump speeds and a restrictive pump inlet is a bearing killer.

There is more to lubricating these engines than making a blanket statement that a HV pump is a power loser.

Of course, when you don’t do your own testing and you only believe what happens in one’s one head then you continue to make the same mistakes over and over.
 
Rat Bastid said:
My test is only irrelevant because it doesn’t fit your narrative.
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My narrative is simple..
It takes more power to run a pump that produces more pressure/ load. It's physics.
What happens downstream from the pump has nothing to do with testing the actual pumps characteristics...
Anyone with half a brain and an education understands that simple concept
Just because you build POS engines is not my problem.
 
Bakerlite said:
My narrative is simple..
It takes more power to run a pump that produces more pressure/ load. It's physics.
Anyone with half a brain and an education understands that simple concept.
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Then somehow prove it half brain
 
Bakerlite said:
Like the election?
Are you his boyfriend?? You seem to stick your nose in when he's in trouble..
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Nope, you just keep saying the same thing but not showing any proof of your claims.
He's not in trouble, you're a clown!
 
Bakerlite said:
Like the election?
Are you his boyfriend?? You seem to stick your nose in when he's in trouble.
I don't have to prove a known fact..
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What facts asshole? You have no facts. Only dreams in your head that you know something or matter.

One last time. Have you done ANY oil pump testing? That’s a yes or no answer.
 
Rat Bastid said:
What facts asshole? You have no facts. Only dreams in your head that you know something or matter.

One last time. Have you done ANY oil pump testing? That’s a yes or no answer.
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.
Crap, yellow rose calm down before you get booted agin.
 
Rat Bastid said:
Have you done ANY oil pump testing?
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Have you?
All we have is your word, the word of the forum bigmouth bullshitter.. No hard data, no evidence, no witness, no nothing, just another one of your "I've done it" claims..Your just too funny..
The fact is your little so called "test" from 20 years ago (if it even happened) was not testing the oil pump power absorption at all.
It was testing how much oil that particular engine combination needed to function correctly and that has nothing to do with how much power the oil pump itself is absorbing.
This is the exact reason why so called "tests" done by unqualified amateurs like you are unreliable..You simply don't know how to run them, let alone interpret the data.
And now you think you can apply that one test (again, if it even happened) to every situation like it's an absolute..
Why?? Because you're the guy who dispelled the myth, the forum legend and you want everyone to know it.:rolleyes:
Fact is, your a joke, usually parroting what someone else has done.

I guess I could point out in the "test" posted, that the Milodon HP/HV pump performed worse than the Stock pump..but what would be the point of that..

I've wasted enough of my time on you..
 
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Jadaharabi said:
.
Crap, yellow rose calm down before you get booted agin.
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This is just another "test" being run by Rat..
He runs the same test over and over again, but somehow expects a different result..
Unfortunately the result is always the same...
 
fishmens67 said:
I'll stick with B. It works for me, always has.
I don't use full groove mains.
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Standard pump with high pressure spring.
Who needs a stinking test , I have proven tests over the course of 45 years.
not one flat cam or one toasted bearing.
Granted my tests only accounts for an rpm range of 6500-6800.
 
Bakerlite said:
Have you?
All we have is your word, the word of the forum bigmouth bullshitter.. No hard data, no evidence, no witness, no nothing, just another one of your "I've done it" claims..Your just too funny..
The fact is your little so called "test" from 20 years ago (if it even happened) was not testing the oil pump power absorption at all.
It was testing how much oil that particular engine combination needed to function correctly and that has nothing to do with how much power the oil pump itself is absorbing.
This is the exact reason why so called "tests" done by unqualified amateurs like you are unreliable..You simply don't know how to run them, let alone interpret the data.
And now you think you can apply that one test (again, if it even happened) to every situation like it's an absolute..
Why?? Because you're the guy who dispelled the myth, the forum legend and you want everyone to know it.:rolleyes:
Fact is, your a joke, usually parroting what someone else has done.

I guess I could point out in the "test" posted, that the Milodon HP/HV pump performed worse than the Stock pump..but what would be the point of that..

I've wasted enough of my time on you..
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Then go away. You don’t test ****. You haven’t a clue. But you have a license.

And I could point out in that test that the HP difference between all the pumps wouldn’t show up in MPH in 99.99% of the cars out there. So what?

You are just a blow hard.
 
fishmens67 said:
Standard pump with high pressure spring.
Who needs a stinking test , I have proven tests over the course of 45 years.
not one flat cam or one toasted bearing.
Granted my tests only accounts for an rpm range of 6500-6800.
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I work on stuff where you can only get a STD pump. That can be a challenge.
The modified Ferrari 308 QV twin turbo engine that I have in the shop at the moment, has some oiling issues:rolleyes:
 
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