Piers or Slab on Grade?

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inkjunkie

inkjunkie

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The structure we had intended to use as house just is not going to happen. Damn near everything that could have been screwed up on it was. Have no legal recourse at this point as everyone that was involved is out of business. Could possibly deal with fixing some of the things wrong, but a few people that I have spoken with think along the same lines I do...it is going to cost as much to fix what is wrong as just starting over...and to start over will remove the fact the the building is simply to large for a retired couple to live in...along with the fact that neither one of us much cares for the buildings design. And if we fix what it wrong we will be dealing with the county and it's building department.
Save the speech about the purpose of the inspections are for my own safety blah blah blah.
If we start over, our county has a owner/builder exemption. Can still have the inspections if we chose. We very well might go this route, just for resale purposes. County has also told us that if we build on piers it is now considered a cabin and they do not inspect cabins...again, they will if we ask...
Anyway, it is just the 2 of us, with some pets. We have finally come to terms that we do no need a gigantic home.
Reason we are thinking of piers if multifaceted...first and foremost is cost. Excavation/concrete work is something that we will have to pay for. Second is a slab on grade home here in the Pacific NW tends to have a cold floor in the winter. Have thought about radiant heat, but with the price of propane it will cost a small fortune to keep the floor warm with hot water.
One thing we are desiring is an elevated wooden deck/porch both front & rear. Slab on grade, one level construction makes this impossible.
One drawback, for us, to a pier home is we have a rather large/heavy gun safe. Foot print is about 60"x30" with an empty weight of about 1700 pounds. In talking to the architect/engineer we will be using he has a serious problem with this. I explained to him I understand why there is a problem but fail to see why a couple of extra piers where the safe will sit will not fix the problem. Sure, we will need to rig up some temporary supports while moving the safe thru the structure but..I think the truth of the matter is he just does not like pier homes..Keep in mind that we will be doing the bulk of the work by our selves, with the help of a few neighbors that are retired contractors.
I am sure I am leaving out all sorts of vital info, so fire away with any thought/comments that you folks have...
Sorry for the length...
 
Doug, as you have mentioned, there are pros and cons for each method mentioned. I would continue with your research and move into whichever direction makes the most sense as you get closer to the actual construction.

A post and beam sounds like the best route, it's common here in our climate. Rarely do we see slab on grade, other than commercial bldgs. Why not go ahead and build to code now, and have the inspections done... Resale value could be significant, and the up front cost should be minimum.

How large / small of a structure are you planning on? Here where I live, building permits are always mandatory, but you can get a permit to build a house as small as 400 sq ft.. You could design an "expandable plan" that gets you into "phase one" quickly, and lends itself to a future addition.

There are prolly many of these type of plans available online. I hope you get into something that works for you, within your time frame. Winter is coming...

BTW, a 400 sq ft 'park model' MH can be permitted and placed on a residential lot here in our county. You can pick one of those up for about $5k used sometimes. Maybe that will get you by for a few years?
 
I am an active project manager for large commercial construction projects. So this is my field.
One thing at a time.
Inspections: if the governing body will not do inspections, there are third party inspectors that can coordinate with the architect, do and document the inspection process for support in the event of a later sale.
Second piers are definitely the way to go. I would do a slab on pier& beam. When completed have the "blue" foam insulation sprayed on the underneath. Then with a vapor barrier on top do an electric radiant system if the water system wont meet either the cost or practicality needs. this is something your architect needs to work out and present as a couple of options. Remember he works for you not the other way around.
With a suspended slab moving the safe shouldn't be a problem.
Hope this helps.
Andrew
 
I would think your idea of extra piers would work for the safe. Could you set it in early on and build around it? I've seen banks built that way.
 
Well, does the safe have a flat bottom that the weight is distributed through, or does it have a perimeter frame or legs that it sits on?
If it is a flat bottom, there shouldn't be a problem at all. You would be distributing 1700# of weight over an area of 1800 square inches, approx. 1# of weight per 1 square inch (or 144# over 1 sq. foot).
When I walk across the floor, I am putting down 170# over a foot print of 12" x 4" or 48 sq. in. which equates to about 3.5# per square inch.

Our refrigerator probably weighs 200# empty? maybe 300# full. That's concentrated on four small wheels. Much more weight per sq. inch than your safe...

If you were concerned about this, you could set the safe so that it spans 3 or 4 floor joists, instead of a single joist, if that makes sense to you.
C
 
Have you considered an outdoor wood fired boiler for radiant in floor heat? If you have access to firewood this can be very economical and would allow you major cost savings doing slab on grade. Propane could be your backup.
 
Have you considered a manufactured home ? There are a couple of companies in the N.W.

Once your foundation is in the building would be set in 1 day. You'd move in about a week or two later.
 
Personally I favor a full masonry foundation or basement, with at least 8' clear ceiling height over either a slab, or piers (crawl space).
 
Thanks for the responses folks.....short on time, have a few comments/answers/thoughts that I would like to add.....see you when I get back home.....
 
bighammer said:
Doug, as you have mentioned, there are pros and cons for each method mentioned. I would continue with your research and move into whichever direction makes the most sense as you get closer to the actual construction.

A post and beam sounds like the best route, it's common here in our climate. Rarely do we see slab on grade, other than commercial bldgs. Why not go ahead and build to code now, and have the inspections done... Resale value could be significant, and the up front cost should be minimum.

How large / small of a structure are you planning on? Here where I live, building permits are always mandatory, but you can get a permit to build a house as small as 400 sq ft.. You could design an "expandable plan" that gets you into "phase one" quickly, and lends itself to a future addition.

There are prolly many of these type of plans available online. I hope you get into something that works for you, within your time frame. Winter is coming...

BTW, a 400 sq ft 'park model' MH can be permitted and placed on a residential lot here in our county. You can pick one of those up for about $5k used sometimes. Maybe that will get you by for a few years?
Click to expand...
Will be going to the county here pretty soon to talk to them about things one more time. It will be built to code no matter what way we go. Just don't really want to deal with the county. Some things we can not get around, like the septic. One way or the other the electric, which is not done by the county, will get inspected. Have a friend that is a licensed electrician that will be doing the electrical work. We have been "camping out" so to speak in what we were hoping was going to be our home so winter coming is not a problem. Thoughts on resale later...As to the size, we are unsure yet. We have what was an indoor garden room in the garage that we are thinking Ernie will use for her sewing room. It is just the 2 of us, so 1 bedroom, 1.5 baths, large walk in closet and a great room for kitchen living room.

blue missile said:
I am an active project manager for large commercial construction projects. So this is my field.
One thing at a time.
Inspections: if the governing body will not do inspections, there are third party inspectors that can coordinate with the architect, do and document the inspection process for support in the event of a later sale.
Second piers are definitely the way to go. I would do a slab on pier& beam. When completed have the "blue" foam insulation sprayed on the underneath. Then with a vapor barrier on top do an electric radiant system if the water system wont meet either the cost or practicality needs. this is something your architect needs to work out and present as a couple of options. Remember he works for you not the other way around.
With a suspended slab moving the safe shouldn't be a problem.
Hope this helps.
Andrew
Click to expand...
Plans for the heat are to use our existing pellet stove....at some point add a mini split system....

zkx14 said:
I would think your idea of extra piers would work for the safe. Could you set it in early on and build around it? I've seen banks built that way.
Click to expand...
Probably not, as it is loaded with stuff....

clhyer said:
Well, does the safe have a flat bottom that the weight is distributed through, or does it have a perimeter frame or legs that it sits on?
If it is a flat bottom, there shouldn't be a problem at all. You would be distributing 1700# of weight over an area of 1800 square inches, approx. 1# of weight per 1 square inch (or 144# over 1 sq. foot).
When I walk across the floor, I am putting down 170# over a foot print of 12" x 4" or 48 sq. in. which equates to about 3.5# per square inch.

Our refrigerator probably weighs 200# empty? maybe 300# full. That's concentrated on four small wheels. Much more weight per sq. inch than your safe...

If you were concerned about this, you could set the safe so that it spans 3 or 4 floor joists, instead of a single joist, if that makes sense to you.
C
Click to expand...
Gun safe does indeed have a flat bottom. Spanning several joists makes complete sense. Have spoken with a neighbor that has a pier home about the safe, his suggested what you did as well as perhaps just adding a pier with a simple bridge of sorts between what ever joists it will sit on.

Idaho said:
Have you considered an outdoor wood fired boiler for radiant in floor heat? If you have access to firewood this can be very economical and would allow you major cost savings doing slab on grade. Propane could be your backup.
Click to expand...
Have considered it, but the expense of it is a bit concerning. More on this shortly...

GGs66GT said:
Have you considered a manufactured home ? There are a couple of companies in the N.W.

Once your foundation is in the building would be set in 1 day. You'd move in about a week or two later.
Click to expand...

Coming up with the $$ for it up front will be a problem....more below....

Frankie said:
Personally I favor a full masonry foundation or basement, with at least 8' clear ceiling height over either a slab, or piers (crawl space).
Click to expand...

This is going to be the house we die in. Running up & down a flight of steps multiple times a day will be a problem.....

Plan is to fund this out of our own pockets. With my physical limitations we are going to be working at a more or less snails pace. We can not finance it do to our credit history. Even if we could we would not, I do not want to spend the rest of my life paying for this. Plan is to keep it small for several reasons, the big one is the expense of it. With what very well could be coming down the pipe for us legally there is not much sense in spending a ton of funds on a house. Kind of long winded, never mind way to private to discuss here.
 
In the last couple of years Mother Earth News magazine run a couple articles on homes. One article was home made from old grain bins, round steel. Another article was on using the large shipping containers. There were some nice homes made with this stuff.
I could be happy with a double wide shipping container home, with a 4 car garage out back!
C
 
this is probably not just me but i like to put safes in the hardest, most secure place in the home. hangin over a floor seems like a very easy snag. cut out the floor and let the weight do the rest...
 
clhyer said:
In the last couple of years Mother Earth News magazine run a couple articles on homes. One article was home made from old grain bins, round steel. Another article was on using the large shipping containers. There were some nice homes made with this stuff.
I could be happy with a double wide shipping container home, with a 4 car garage out back!
C
Click to expand...

Have seen some magazine articles about this very thing. And am thinking about it. Pretty sure the boss is going to have an issue with it but sometimes she surprises me.

805moparkid said:
this is probably not just me but i like to put safes in the hardest, most secure place in the home. hangin over a floor seems like a very easy snag. cut out the floor and let the weight do the rest...
Click to expand...

And I thought I was paranoid....At most the floor will be 2' above ground. Safe is close to 6' tall, going to be impossible for it to be opened if something like that were to happen. And if I were to go with piers I will see to it that there is one directly under the safe, so short of removing the pier this will not happen.

Bottom line is because of what very well may happen in regards to a legal matter the less $$ spent the better. It is very likely that when we are gone our Daughter will not be able to sell the place, thanks to the mess from when I was forced out of work and the credit troubles that went along with it....Have given a manufactured home some thought here lately. Big concern is the safe. Have seen the floor structure of some manufactured homes, does not look like it would be capable of supporting the safe and all of it's contents. A while back I did ask one of the home retailers about putting the safe on one of there homes and after the salesman called there engineering firm was told that was not that good of an idea. He said of course if we knew ahead of time that they would be willing to redesign the floor system. But that would mean buying a new one....and that is not going to happen.

Back to the storage container thing.....there is a place in Airway Heights that sells them, or at least did. Perhaps a visit to them is in order....and some researching...
 
haha when it comes to the safe any and all counter points must be thought of...
 
805moparkid said:
haha when it comes to the safe any and all counter points must be thought of...
Click to expand...

Need to stop watching movies.....Know for a fact that if my particular gun safe were to drop a couple of feet like that it WOULD NOT open. Reason I know is when the first one was delivered the pallet it was on was completely destroyed. Shipping company admitted that they dropped it some how. Called the manufacturer of the safe, they told me that the glass panels in the door had shattered and the only way to get it open was to cut it. So let me guess, next thing you are going to say is someone will cut the floor open, drop the safe to the ground, cut the house open big enough to lay the safe down and then cut it open? If someone wants my stuff that badly they can have it....Sorry.....even with my several mental health issues even I am not that paranoid....

Now to return to the scheduled programming.....

Counter points? Is your safe safe? What would stop someone from cutting a hole in your roof and lifting the safe out with a helicopter? Sounds kind of silly, does it not?
 
inkjunkie said:
Need to stop watching movies.....Know for a fact that if my particular gun safe were to drop a couple of feet like that it WOULD NOT open. Reason I know is when the first one was delivered the pallet it was on was completely destroyed. Shipping company admitted that they dropped it some how. Called the manufacturer of the safe, they told me that the glass panels in the door had shattered and the only way to get it open was to cut it. So let me guess, next thing you are going to say is someone will cut the floor open, drop the safe to the ground, cut the house open big enough to lay the safe down and then cut it open? If someone wants my stuff that badly they can have it....Sorry.....even with my several mental health issues even I am not that paranoid....

Now to return to the scheduled programming.....

Counter points? Is your safe safe? What would stop someone from cutting a hole in your roof and lifting the safe out with a helicopter? Sounds kind of silly, does it not?
Click to expand...

who said it would just magically open or brought up movies??? have you seen/heard about people driving up and loading a car on a flat bed and driving off before the owner was out of bed? same thing has happened to safes if certain measures are not taken. That's awesome you have a glass relocker, kinda a bummer it locks you out but to each there own, I prefer a crazy locking system like I have.

anyways it is yours and you will mount it any way you like... good luck
 
How bout instead of 'upgrading' the whole place to accomodate the safe, make a one room 'addition' that can handle it. Could be block, different level, - whatever works.
 
805moparkid said:
who said it would just magically open or brought up movies??? have you seen/heard about people driving up and loading a car on a flat bed and driving off before the owner was out of bed? same thing has happened to safes if certain measures are not taken. That's awesome you have a glass relocker, kinda a bummer it locks you out but to each there own, I prefer a crazy locking system like I have.

anyways it is yours and you will mount it any way you like... good luck
Click to expand...

First off, before you go chest pounding about "your crazy lock system" perhaps you should read a bit about my gun safe.....Pentagon Safes

Second, stealing any gun safe is a bit more of a challenge than stealing a car, that rolls, with a flat bed.

Next up, guess you did not read my comment about there will probably be a pier under the gun safe. So just cutting the floor and dropping it on the ground aint gonna happen. I have moved this thing

View attachment 119_1934 (Medium).jpg

a few times. When I moved it into where it is currently sitting I used a pallet jack, keep in mind it is currently sitting on concrete. When it was moved in/out of my place in AZ it took two pallet jacks and four guys....again on concrete. And lets not forget the forklift that we used both in AZ and here to get it out of the back of the truck...Come on man, the thing is not some sheet metal filling cabinet that most folks consider a gun safe because it has a funky lock on it......If I remember correctly the door alone is close to 700 pounds....

We have dogs.....and neighbors on two sides that are home 24/7. So I seriously doubt any one is going to be cutting a hole under my house, dropping this safe into my sandy lot laying it down under the house (the safe is just under 36" wide, there will only be about 24" of clearance under the house) pulling it out from under the house and loading it onto the back of a truck. Just aint gonna happen....and I thought I was paranoid....
 
You are right, the wood boilers are spendy. I found this fella over in Troy Montana.

http://www.rohor.com/
http://www.montanastove.com/

Very interesting crusty kinda guy. He seems to have a great product and he sells plans to build them, but still spendy up front even though it would pay for itself.

Another Idea I think is kinda cool is the straw bale house. Sounds bizarre but one of the smarter guys I know built one near Fargo (very cold) and apparently they are happy with it.

I'd love to go off grid but it's a lot of work and expense to get there.

These are just random pics off the net.
 

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Doug, I am what is called a Spatial Technologist. That is just a fancy name for somebody that uses a cadd program to design just about anything. I am currently specialized in marine structures but I also design buildings. I work with engineers and architects everyday. My first piece of advice is to dump the architect. They draw pretty pictures but have a real problem when it comes to engineering something for strength. I have drawn a few house plans in my life, anything from a small bungalow to a 4000 sq. ft. single story monster, and it is not hard. You could probably rough sketch a floor plan and an engineer or a tech like myself could design a system to hold your safe in 15 minutes. It is not rocket science, just loads. If you don't need an architects stamp on your plans, this may be the way to go. I don't know what kind of frost depth you have to worry about there, but if it is not to deep then a slab on grade, thickened around the edges, reinforced with rebar may be the way to go. That way you could just do a thickened slab under the safe as well, cheap and strong. Remember, rebar is cheap. If you want to talk more, PM me.

Jack
 
I never knew this Jack I agree with your thoughts on a architect, I remember seeing a picture and presentation blue print that was drew up and they had a 16' wide set of concrete stairs that approached a P.E. center and attached to a breeze way to a couple entrances, it looked nice and all but it was just that Looked nice and cost was crazy
But, an engineer cam in and put a stop to it because of footing and rain run off and something to do with expansion

My first house/home I ever bought I crawled under the house to check out the vapor beerier and floor trusses and seen a big 3X6 block footing filled with concrete and some pieces of rebar under the floor..... I then found out and learned that a fire place was to be built for that area and never was dun, the folks had a piano there at one time.
 
Coyote Jack said:
Doug, I am what is called a Spatial Technologist. That is just a fancy name for somebody that uses a cadd program to design just about anything. I am currently specialized in marine structures but I also design buildings. I work with engineers and architects everyday. My first piece of advice is to dump the architect. They draw pretty pictures but have a real problem when it comes to engineering something for strength. I have drawn a few house plans in my life, anything from a small bungalow to a 4000 sq. ft. single story monster, and it is not hard. You could probably rough sketch a floor plan and an engineer or a tech like myself could design a system to hold your safe in 15 minutes. It is not rocket science, just loads. If you don't need an architects stamp on your plans, this may be the way to go. I don't know what kind of frost depth you have to worry about there, but if it is not to deep then a slab on grade, thickened around the edges, reinforced with rebar may be the way to go. That way you could just do a thickened slab under the safe as well, cheap and strong. Remember, rebar is cheap. If you want to talk more, PM me.

Jack
Click to expand...

Will be taking you up on this. Footing on the nightmare that I am currently living in are 36" deep......In one of my conversations with the county they told me that all I need to do for an owner/builder exemption is provide them with a simple plot plan and a letter stating that this structure will be torn down when we done with it. Anyway, please do send me a phone number. Will probably be a while before I call, would like to pretty much have everything figured out before taking up any of your time....Thanks Jack...
 
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