Slight speedo cable leak...and other questions

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318MoparGuy

318MoparGuy

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Hi All,
I have a 1973 Dart Swinger, it was originally a /6 car. It looks to have the original auto tranny and has a slight leak from where the speedo cable goes into the tranny. What is involved in getting this leak fixed and while I'm in there, are there any other seals or whatever to replace as preventive maintenance? Has anyone gone through this and where is the best place to get required seals, etc? Part numbers would be great too...I will be servicing tranny sometime this winter and might as well do both things at once. Any pictures, diagrams, advice and steps would be greatly appreciated. Also, how do I tell what type of tranny I have or should I say what usually came in this car? It has a 7.25 rearend. Everyone on this site really wants to help their fellow moparer and I would like to thank everyone in advance for their assistance.
Thanks as always...:cheers:
Greg
 
Greg if it's just a small leak at the speedo cable I'd let it fly. They are nearly impossible to get stopped leaking altogether so you may put new seals in it and still leak the same. Been rebuilding torqueflite's for over 30 yrs. and rarely have one that doesn't leak at all at the speedo cable. As far as any other seals there isn't anything that you'd do as regular maintenance, just if it has a leak. If you do have to buy seals get them where ever their the cheapest cause nearly everything is made at the same place nowadays. You can try O'reilley's, Autozone, NAPA, etc... When you service it make sure and adjust the bands to spec. Some guys skip that part and it's important.

You say it was originally a /6, I take it it's now a V8? If so it isn't the original trans. cause the bellhousing is different from a /6 to a V8. I attached pics of the pan of both the 904 and 727 so you can figure out what one you've got. The first pic is of a 727. Bottom pic is of a 904.

BTW: originally it would have had the 904. May still have a 904, just a V8 bolt pattern trans.
 

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Thanks fishy68 for the info and pics, I really appreciate your help. I just got under the car, felt the outline of the pan and it looks to be a 904. Also the PO installed a mild shift kit and it seems to work fine. What's involved in adjusting the bands and are there any qwerky things about a 904 I should be aware of? Do you have a particular tranny fluid brand and filter you like to use? Still looking for a 1973 FSM for my Dart so I can refer to things like this and learn about the car.
Thanks,
Greg
 
Band adjustments are pretty straight forward, and there are a crapload of video's on it like this. [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6562c-8pBU"]904 Torqueflite Front Band Adjustment - YouTube[/ame]

Fluid is a bit of a personal/myth choice.

Dexron type fluid is used a lot, as is type F and some even mix them 50/50
Type F fluid has a bit firmer shift due to it's friction modifiers.

Other than that, there are no real differences in fluid.

As far as filters, just get a decent quality filter from a reputable dealer like Napa and you can't really go wrong.

I say buy inexpensive atf and save your money for more imortant stuff.
 
Demon 408 said:
The seals for the speedo pinion adapter are probably shot, here's a link for the seals: http://www.brewersperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=SSK
Click to expand...

If you use those seals your best off stacking 2 of the black inner ones (yep 2 will fit in there). 2 might help hold fluid back. As I mentioned in my first post it's nearly impossible to totally stop them from leaking all together and he says his is just a slight leak, if the seals were shot it'd be a big leak, jmho
 
318MoparGuy said:
Thanks fishy68 for the info and pics, I really appreciate your help. I just got under the car, felt the outline of the pan and it looks to be a 904. Also the PO installed a mild shift kit and it seems to work fine. What's involved in adjusting the bands and are there any qwerky things about a 904 I should be aware of? Do you have a particular tranny fluid brand and filter you like to use? Still looking for a 1973 FSM for my Dart so I can refer to things like this and learn about the car.
Thanks,
Greg
Click to expand...

Glad to help Greg. X2 on everything AAR said. If the PO installed the shift kit recently and it's working good there may not be a reason to do anything. ATF generally lasts a long time, much longer than engine oil. And bands don't need adjusted that often. If it's been a long time ago when the kit was installed it might be ready for a service. The 904 is real straight forward. No querks that I can think of.

There was a early 70's (not positive on the year, 72 or 73?) Dart FSM downloaded somewhere on the board. May have been in the general Mopar forums. I think AbodyJoe posted it. You might do a search and see what you can find. It's available for download
 
fishy68...when you mentioned if the shift kit was installed a long time ago, I neglected to include in previous post that the shift kit was installed in 2009. I would like to think tranny was serviced while it was open to install shift kit, certainly the fluid if not the filter also...Do you know what the service interval would be for the shift kit...the car only put on approx. 3000 miles since 2009. When I service the tranny for band adjustment, fluid and filter...is there anything that needs to be changed/adjusted with regard to shift kit. Even though the car has very low miles on it since 2009, 4 years has passed. I would think the prudent thing from a preventative maintenance standpoint would be to service it. Also, how many quarts of tranny fluid will I need for the service? Thanks to all for taking the time to respond, it is much appreciated and I do value everyone's advice/thoughts.
Thanks again,
Greg
 
about 11 quarts if the converter is drained at the same time, and the fluid, filter and band adjustments are all that can be done unless changes need to be made in shift points or something like that.

One other thing to note would be to get the reusable composite rubber/steel gasket for the pan when you do it.
Don't know the part number off hand, but it can be gotten from the dealer as a 46RE pan gasket.
 
Thanks TrailBeast....ok so it takes 11 qts. to refill everything...how many qts. if I don't drain TC (just wondering), but I probably will do it not knowing when it was done last...maybe a stupid question but is the fluid for the TC the same as the tranny fluid and if so, do you refill the TC using the same fill hole where you ck. your tranny fluid level? Does the tranny have be in neutral when refilling? Where is the drain plug for the TC and is it easily accessible...meaning do you have to remove anything to get to it? Thanks also for the suggestion about the new pan gasket being composite rubber/steel. You probably got some LOL's from my questions...but appreciate your help..
Thanks,
Greg
 
To be honest unless it sat in a humid environment not ran I wouldn't worry about it. Transmission fluid lasts many thousands of miles. Auto transmissions in general require only about 1/10th the maintenance of an engine at most. You can generally tell from the look of the fluid when you pull the dipstick the condition of the trans. If the fluid looks like pepto bismal it has water in it and needs completely flushed out and the filter changed. If it's brown and stinky it's burned and a flush job might help but more than likely the trans. is pretty well burned up and needs rebuilt. If it's nice and red and doesn't feel gritty between the fingers it's fine. If you decide to service it there's nothing you need to do concerning the shift kit. A shift kit is basically just a re-programming kit for the trans. Once done your done with it. If you do service it and don't drain the converter it'll only take about 5 qts to refill it and yes you check the level in neutral, not park. Some converters don't even have a drain so it may not be possible to drain it. If it does have a drain it's located under the torque converter access plate. Some plates have a small separate way to get into the torque converter drain plug and some require removing the starter and engine to trans. support brackets to take it off. This plate I'm referring too basically separates the engine and trans. Once you remove the plate you will have to spin the engine over slowly to get the drain plug right at the bottom to drain it good. Yes you fill it from the same fill tube. It'll get pumped into the converter. That's a real good suggestion by TB on the gasket. I love them. Haven't had one leak yet and their reusable.
 
Thanks Tracy.
Seems like we are tag teaming this one. :D
 
fishy68 said:
To be honest unless it sat in a humid environment not ran I wouldn't worry about it. Transmission fluid lasts many thousands of miles. Auto transmissions in general require only about 1/10th the maintenance of an engine at most. You can generally tell from the look of the fluid when you pull the dipstick the condition of the trans. If the fluid looks like pepto bismal it has water in it and needs completely flushed out and the filter changed. If it's brown and stinky it's burned and a flush job might help but more than likely the trans. is pretty well burned up and needs rebuilt. If it's nice and red and doesn't feel gritty between the fingers it's fine. If you decide to service it there's nothing you need to do concerning the shift kit. A shift kit is basically just a re-programming kit for the trans. Once done your done with it. If you do service it and don't drain the converter it'll only take about 5 qts to refill it and yes you check the level in neutral, not park. Some converters don't even have a drain so it may not be possible to drain it. If it does have a drain it's located under the torque converter access plate. Some plates have a small separate way to get into the torque converter drain plug and some require removing the starter and engine to trans. support brackets to take it off. This plate I'm referring too basically separates the engine and trans. Once you remove the plate you will have to spin the engine over slowly to get the drain plug right at the bottom to drain it good. Yes you fill it from the same fill tube. It'll get pumped into the converter. That's a real good suggestion by TB on the gasket. I love them. Haven't had one leak yet and their reusable.
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fishy68 and TrailBeast.....A BIG THANKS to both of you for taking the time to answer all my questions and explain other things about the 904....really appreciate it and you both have shown once again that FABO guys and gals will always help a fellow mopar in need of info, parts or whatever....Thanks again and all the best to you...:hello1:
Greg
P.S.- Just a question...why would some 904's have a TC drain plug and some not...they're all 904's....right?....hmmmm.....thanks.
 
318MoparGuy said:
fishy68 and TrailBeast.....A BIG THANKS to both of you for taking the time to answer all my questions and explain other things about the 904....really appreciate it and you both have shown once again that FABO guys and gals will always help a fellow mopar in need of info, parts or whatever....Thanks again and all the best to you...:hello1:
Greg
P.S.- Just a question...why would some 904's have a TC drain plug and some not...they're all 904's....right?....hmmmm.....thanks.
Click to expand...

Glad to help Greg. The only possibility I can think of is maybe some were built at a different place than others and one place put in the drain and the other didn't. Same goes for the 727's. Some had them and some didn't.
 
fishy68 said:
Glad to help Greg. The only possibility I can think of is maybe some were built at a different place than others and one place put in the drain and the other didn't. Same goes for the 727's. Some had them and some didn't.
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Makes sense.....thanks, Greg
 
fishy68 said:
Glad to help Greg. The only possibility I can think of is maybe some were built at a different place than others and one place put in the drain and the other didn't. Same goes for the 727's. Some had them and some didn't.
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fishy68 and TrailBeast,

Funny we were just discussing 904 TC drain plugs and I found this info on the web for those who don't have a drain plug on their 904 and 727 TC's to be able to change out the fluid in a "interesting" way. Do you think this is a viable/safe way of doing it? Food for thought...Take care, Greg

How to drain a torque converter w/o drain plug

The DIY method is:

1.Drain you tranny pan (hopefully you have a drain plug, otherwise drop the pan and the whole nine yards that goes with that - might as well change your filter and gasket then).

2. Re-install pan (or drain plug), fill tranny to correct level of fluid without starting your vehicle.

3. Disconnect your tranny out line (usually the uppermost tranny line that goes to the rad). I disconnect it right at the radiator.

4. Attach a 5/16 inside diameter clear hose (about 6ft or so long) to the line you disconnected from the rad.

5. Run free end of the hose to a jug to catch any outgoing ATF.

6. Start your vehicle, put tranny in gear. You will start to see trany fluid flow through the clear hose into the jug now. Let a few quarts go in. Stop engine. Top up your trans.

7. Start engine, put tranny in gear, watch fluid in hose come out. When fluid comes out bright red, you are now pumped out most of your old fluid out of the torque convertor. Shut off and refill trans to correct fluid level.
 
That should work. Just be careful you don't let the pan run dry. I wouldn't let more than 3 qts. run out it before I added more. If there's 2 doing the job I guess one could keep the pan filled while the other reports to him approx. how much came out.
 
fishy68...Thanks for the info...Do you have a picture of where the 904 torque converter access plate would be if I had a TC with a drain plug? If I don't have one, then I guess this would be the next best way of draining everything. Also, if I use the Dexron tranny fluid, is that just Dexron or Dexron II?... as I don't know what the latest formulation is. As for the service interval on tranny fluid, how long between changes in normal service? With the older cars, do you go by mileage or years?
Thanks as always,
Greg
 
On the front of the trans and behind the oil pan of the engine it looks like this picture, and the small piece is the cover.
I think Tracy mentioned that you may have to remove the entire cover, which involves removing the starter as well as the two braces that go from the block to the bell housing.

Dexron 2 is fine and will run well in it.
The fluid will usually stay until it looks darker or smells a little smokey and/or waxy.
Changing it once a year won't hurt though, but not a big deal (more just for personal preference)

If you don't have a drain plug on your pan there are two pretty good ways of dealing with that.
On mine I drilled a 1/8 inch hole in the corner of the pan right under the dipstick.
This lets the fluid drain without making a big mess, and a pop rivet in the hole from the outside seals it back up again.
Then next fluid change you just cut the rivet head off with a small chisel, then knock the rivet shaft inside the pan and do your service as normal and re rivet the pan.
(Obviously you should remember to take the old rivet section out of the pan)

A self taping screw works fine also, but you should put a dab of silicone around the screw shaft on the inside of the pan before it goes back on.

You have to wait a few min for the fluid to drain, but it sure is a lot cleaner and easier.
 

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TrailBeast said:
On the front of the trans and behind the oil pan of the engine it looks like this picture, and the small piece is the cover.
I think Tracy mentioned that you may have to remove the entire cover, which involves removing the starter as well as the two braces that go from the block to the bell housing.
Click to expand...

Yes I did mention having to remove the entire access cover. I don't believe that was right if it has a converter drain plug. The more I think of it I believe Mopar used the cover with the small access plate like in your picture when the converter had a drain plug. My best guess is if you don't have the small 2 bolt cover you probably don't have a converter drain plug.

I have only been lucky enough to get 1 with a drain plug and that was my first one in 1980 so I'm in the habit of saying you have to take the entire cover off. Need to get out of that habit
 
fishy68 and TrailBeast....Thanks TrailBeast for the tranny fluid type info (is Dexron II only made by one particular company or does everyone make it and put their name on it?) and cool tips on how to make a drain for the tranny pan...definitely a lot cleaner and easier. I had the car up on the rack today and my mechanic found and removed the access plate as seen in your picture (thank you for that nice pic),then he wrenched (rotated ) the cylinders from the front of the engine to spin the flexplate (correct term?) while I looked into the access opening for the drain plug as he rotated the plate around, but no dice...I saw the four bolts attaching the things together in there, but nothing else...fishy68 even though I do have the access cover and you felt that if the cover was there that it should have a drain plug (which makes sense to me because having the access cover off would make it so much easier to drain it w/o taking off the starter and the 2 braces to get to it). But based on my findings today, do you still feel a drain plug should be in there (because the access cover is there?)...is it possible that the drain plug might be higher (above) the access cover and all that stuff has to come off to get to the plug? If it doesn't have a plug, it's not terrible and I guess changing just the pan fluid and filter every 1-2 years will rotate fresh fluid into the TC and that will be okay. Question....when adjusting the bands, are those top adjusting bolts easily accessible and where might they be if I am standing under the tranny facing the back of the car with the engine behind me? Thanks to you both for your time and experience based advice?
Take care,
Greg
 
318MoparGuy said:
fishy68 and TrailBeast....Thanks TrailBeast for the tranny fluid type info (is Dexron II only made by one particular company or does everyone make it and put their name on it?) and cool tips on how to make a drain for the tranny pan...definitely a lot cleaner and easier. I had the car up on the rack today and my mechanic found and removed the access plate as seen in your picture (thank you for that nice pic),then he wrenched (rotated ) the cylinders from the front of the engine to spin the flexplate (correct term?) while I looked into the access opening for the drain plug as he rotated the plate around, but no dice...I saw the four bolts attaching the things together in there, but nothing else...fishy68 even though I do have the access cover and you felt that if the cover was there that it should have a drain plug (which makes sense to me because having the access cover off would make it so much easier to drain it w/o taking off the starter and the 2 braces to get to it). But based on my findings today, do you still feel a drain plug should be in there (because the access cover is there?)...is it possible that the drain plug might be higher (above) the access cover and all that stuff has to come off to get to the plug? If it doesn't have a plug, it's not terrible and I guess changing just the pan fluid and filter every 1-2 years will rotate fresh fluid into the TC and that will be okay. Question....when adjusting the bands, are those top adjusting bolts easily accessible and where might they be if I am standing under the tranny facing the back of the car with the engine behind me? Thanks to you both for your time and experience based advice?
Take care,
Greg
Click to expand...

fishy68 and TrailBeast,
Just a footnote.....I just did a search for dexron II and found Dex III, IV and such, but No Dex II...I assume we don't want to go synthetic..right? Would NAPA have Dex II?
Thanks,
Greg
 
Dex III of IV is fine also. The newer designations are just upgraded versions. I haven't studied much into synthetic ATF but a buddy of mine says you don't want to mix it with regular so stay away from it since you can't get all the old ATF out.

I wonder if someone in the past has changed your torque converter and that's why it has no drain plug? I'm sure if it had one you'd see it by removing the cover.

There's only 1 band adjustment you can access from the outside, the front band. It's not the easiest to get at but can be done. I know we mentioned adjusting the bands earlier but now that I think of it more I wonder is what adjustment do you go by since it has a shift kit in it? Most shift kits specify what to adjust the bands to since they modify things and if you don't have the paperwork that came with the shift kit it's a guess as to the adjustment. Since you say it's working good I think I'd leave it alone.
 
fishy68 said:
Dex III of IV is fine also. The newer designations are just upgraded versions. I haven't studied much into synthetic ATF but a buddy of mine says you don't want to mix it with regular so stay away from it since you can't get all the old ATF out.

I wonder if someone in the past has changed your torque converter and that's why it has no drain plug? I'm sure if it had one you'd see it by removing the cover.

There's only 1 band adjustment you can access from the outside, the front band. It's not the easiest to get at but can be done. I know we mentioned adjusting the bands earlier but now that I think of it more I wonder is what adjustment do you go by since it has a shift kit in it? Most shift kits specify what to adjust the bands to since they modify things and if you don't have the paperwork that came with the shift kit it's a guess as to the adjustment. Since you say it's working good I think I'd leave it alone.
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fishy68 and TrailBeast...I talked to the local NAPA guy today about DEX II and he said that he stocks DEX III as a replacement for DEX II...his tranny guy has always said to move up 1 level only ,never 2 levels...meaning if you have DEX 2 in there, then you can go to DEX III...NOW not knowing if I have DEX I or II in there or possibly Type F, what would be your recommendation as to tranny fluid type? Update...I guess (no...I now know) I have CRS (Can't Remember SH*#) because as I was talking to the NAPA guy, I suddenly remembered that going with the 1983 318 in the car, the PO did tell me that the tranny had a lockup TC (which would make sense that he would pull the tranny also when he pulled the 1983 318 engine)..does this new info possibly clear up the drain plug question and based on this info (duh Greg)...also does it change the tranny fluid type choice? I was so focused on determining which tranny I had that I totally forgot that it had a lock-up TC. So is it possible that the PO inserted the 1983 lockup TC in the original 904 housing case...am I right in my thinking or not? As for band adjustment, a question...when I put it in reverse, there is a very slight delay before it goes in, now do you know which band controls reverse and is it worth it to try to adjust or should I just chalk it up as being normal for a 40 year old Dart?
TrailBeast...you mentioned going to a rubber tranny pan gasket when servicing it (a great suggestion) and so I asked the NAPA guy while I was there about the tranny fluid if he had a rubber pan gasket and he showed me the one for a 904...so would you use the NAPA rubber gasket or still go to the dealer and get theirs? Thanks guys for hanging with me and I look forward to your responses....going now to give myself 40 lashes with a wet noodle :eek:ops: Hope I didn't have you guys scratching your heads too much!!!!
Thanks,
Greg
 
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