stand alone EFI for gen3 hemis

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I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that lxmodguys standalone is based on ms3, just like EFI source.

Rat patrol- I don't understand your question on MS3. But know the MS3x is on par with the $3000 FAST kit in regards to features and tuneability.

I had a WOT tune dialed in within 2 hours on the dyno using my MS3x.

You should do a little reading on tuning. Most tuning occurs in the VE table and Spark advance table. Factory computer, FAST, and MS3x (includes lxmodguy and EFI source): they all use VE and spark tables for tuning.

If you want factory knock control and don't care to tune yourself- get the factory set up.

If you don't care about knock control and want to tune yourself, then get the FAST or any of the MS3x systems. These stand alone options have a ton of features that you can also use. Here is a short list comparing MS3x and FAST.
__________________________________________________ __________
The FAST XFI and MS3 are pretty similar on paper. I'm looking through
the FAST manual to see if there's any major differences, and here's what
I have noticed. Look like some points land in favor of FAST and some for
MS3. Overall, the MS3 has a bit more precise fuel control.

1. The fuel and ignition tuning process is almost EXACTLY the same for
the main fuel and spark maps. Unlike some of the other John Meany ECUs,
the FAST system uses a VE type fuel table, which MS also does.

2. The only acceleration enrichment option in FAST is a "accelerator
pump" type enrichment; MS3 (and MS2) also has a model based acceleration
enrichment that is a bit more sophisticated. This generally has very
little effect on a drag car; it's more useful on a road racer.

3. FAST has more nitrous channels (4 instead of 2), while MS3 can run
its nitrous control progressively.

4. FAST boost control is closed loop only. MS3 (and MS2) has closed and
open loop boost control. MS3 can also adjust boost as a function of
vehicle speed - although this is not allowed in the NHRA.

5. FAST has a dedicated EGR function (this could be done with a generic
output on MS3).

6. FAST has a time based traction control option to meet NHRA rules
against monitoring wheel speed.

7. FAST individual cylinder corrections are a fixed percent or degree.
MS3 has 6 x 6 tables for each cylinder.

8. FAST has 8 extra analog inputs; MS3 has 3 to 5 depending on setup.

9. FAST can switch between 4 internally stored maps; MS3 has 2.

10. FAST does not support MAF input or blending alpha N with speed
density. MS3 (and MS2) supports both.

11. FAST does not seem to have the same sort of gradual staged injection
capabilities as MS3 and MS2, although I could be wrong.

Thanks,

Matt Cramer
DIYAutoTune.com
__________________________________________________ ____________
 
My ms3x controls:
Spark
Injectors
Electric fuel pumps
Electric fan
AC clutch
Nitrous

I may add:
Knock control (no one has done with Hemi yet)
EGT probes
2nd wideband
Check engine light (to monitor things like voltage)
Limp mode (if my AFR's or EGT's get too far off)

Other things it can do:
Boost control
Alpha n tuning instead of speed density
Switching VE or spark tables on a user set trigger
Trim individual cylinders
Change the injector timing

Something it might do in future:
Control drive by wire throttle (not been done for Hemi yet)
 
"2. The only acceleration enrichment option in FAST is a "accelerator
pump" type enrichment; MS3 (and MS2) also has a model based acceleration
enrichment that is a bit more sophisticated. This generally has very
little effect on a drag car; it's more useful on a road racer."

I am not familiar with Megasquirt systems, but just for interest, what this "model based AE means?
FAST XFI AE can be adjusted
by TPS and MAP rate of chance, TPS position, and engine temp.

Internal dataloggin feature in XFI is great and easy to use. MS have it also?
 
Jousi said:
"2. The only acceleration enrichment option in FAST is a "accelerator
pump" type enrichment; MS3 (and MS2) also has a model based acceleration
enrichment that is a bit more sophisticated. This generally has very
little effect on a drag car; it's more useful on a road racer."

I am not familiar with Megasquirt systems, but just for interest, what this "model based AE means?
FAST XFI AE can be adjusted
by TPS and MAP rate of chance, TPS position, and engine temp.

Internal dataloggin feature in XFI is great and easy to use. MS have it also?
Click to expand...

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/Acceleration_Enrichment.html

Data logging is easy. Reviewing the data log is done in mega log viewer. Easy to use data.
 
I doubt the MS3x acceleration enrichment is very much of an advantage. Can't imagine most would take it to the degree that is offered. I probably won't, anyway.
 
Any ECM solution factory or aftermarket is not going to automatically make changes for you if you make exhaust, cam, compression changes. The EZ efi 2 will, but you need a XIM module to drive the coils which is about $700 in stand alone form
 
UNCHOOG - Im very much a Layman when it comes to EFI tuning and computer spark control -

LXMODGUY - You wrote -
Yup, but you want to know whats different? It doesn't matter how good your tools are if you don't know how to use them. I tune 100's of new hemi's a year. If you are going to drop in a bone stock motor right down to the factory exhaust manifolds their solution will work out of the box. As soon as you start adding stuff, it gets very different very quickly.
Click to expand...

.... So are you saying your idea is superior to the MS3x... If so, why?

Or are you saying something different? Just trying to get a handle on what you wrote..... :)
 
Uhcoog1 said:
I doubt the MS3x acceleration enrichment is very much of an advantage. Can't imagine most would take it to the degree that is offered. I probably won't, anyway.
Click to expand...

Thanks for answer Uhcoog1. Yeah, surely it looked quite sophisticated feature. I might go with MS in next project just to see how it ticks.
 
Rat Patrol said:
UNCHOOG - Im very much a Layman when it comes to EFI tuning and computer spark control -

LXMODGUY - You wrote -

.... So are you saying your idea is superior to the MS3x... If so, why?

Or are you saying something different? Just trying to get a handle on what you wrote..... :)
Click to expand...

Rat patrol-

The comment made by lxmodguy is only specific to the Fact that EFI Source will provide you with a tune for a bone stock 6.1 and that's it. They won't help you with another tune, which is needed if you've upgraded the motor at all. His comment has nothing to do with the MS3x computer they use, as it is capable of anything and everything you would want to do. You could very well buy the EFI Source and follow my tuning advice in other posts and dial it in yourself, but mistakes could cost you a motor.

Further, as far as I can tell, the 'sales pitch' from lxmodguy is that you get a 'base tune' for your combo, whatever it may be (cam, heads, etc etc). And, he'll dial the tune in for a fee.
 
EFISource will absolutely do what they can over the phone. They promise it won't take long either. So we will see.
 
Personally I like more options.
-MS3x done yourself
-EFI Source
-LXModGuy
-XFI 2.0
-Factory with hotwire

All very good options. My suggestion is to pick based on available tuning. At the end of the day, you should pick your system based on what your tuner suggests. And, if lxmodguy is a really good tuner, it might be worth going with his system.
 
joeboy said:
lxmodguy said:
Is your car running? I am in Denver from time to time. If you can get a dyno I would be happy to come out there and tune it on one of my trips
Click to expand...

Wow, I may actually hold you to that when I'm ready... I know there are some talented tuners in the area for turbo 4's, but haven't looked into Hemi tuning yet... I'm getting really close to firing it for the first time in the next few months. I'm sorting out little stuff like throttle cable brackets and trans lines... I still need a full interior to drive it, but it's mechanically done in theory.

Mine is 5.7 with a comp cam 268, intake and long tubes obviously... I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the factory timing table for initial startup, or if I need to start with 6.1 timing, or a different table completely. Tuning is something I really only know a little about...

Joe
Click to expand...
I have done many 5.7's w 268's. I can probably hunt up a good one to send you

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Uhcoog1 said:
Personally I like more options.
-MS3x done yourself
-EFI Source
-LXModGuy
-XFI 2.0
-Factory with hotwire

All very good options. My suggestion is to pick based on available tuning. At the end of the day, you should pick your system based on what your tuner suggests. And, if lxmodguy is a really good tuner, it might be worth going with his system.
Click to expand...
I would respond by saying that there are lots of options. I've tuned most of them. There are maybe a hand full of guys that have tuned more gen3 stuff than I have. I personally don't care if I sell anyone a single part. If you tell me what you are trying to accomplish ill point you in the best direction for your budget and skill level. All I ask is that you give me the opportunity to do your tuning

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Uhcoog1 said:
Rat patrol-

The comment made by lxmodguy is only specific to the Fact that EFI Source will provide you with a tune for a bone stock 6.1 and that's it. They won't help you with another tune, which is needed if you've upgraded the motor at all. His comment has nothing to do with the MS3x computer they use, as it is capable of anything and everything you would want to do. You could very well buy the EFI Source and follow my tuning advice in other posts and dial it in yourself, but mistakes could cost you a motor.

Further, as far as I can tell, the 'sales pitch' from lxmodguy is that you get a 'base tune' for your combo, whatever it may be (cam, heads, etc etc). And, he'll dial the tune in for a fee.
Click to expand...

OK Im with the program now - You are right - I thought there was an issue with the MS3x not being able to accommodate significant changes in things like cam profile etc[

Thx for translating "insider speak" into "lay speak" :)
 
Efi isn't something you should venture into without help. I just started getting into the hardware in the last 2 years. I've been tuning gen3 motors since diablo came out with the software. Tuning ls motors since 04'.

I have Rich on speed dial with my build.

Coil on plug
Ethanol
Direct port injection
13:1 440 street motor
4L80 built by Phoenix

1560752_10201539774558726_1066392882_n.jpg


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lxmodguy said:
I have done many 5.7's w 268's. I can probably hunt up a good one to send you


If you could, that would be sweet! That would make my day/week/month for sure! Nothing beats dyno time like you said. But to have a solid starting point and not just a guess would really ease any fears about an initial start-up at home.
Click to expand...
 
joeboy said:
lxmodguy said:
I have done many 5.7's w 268's. I can probably hunt up a good one to send you


If you could, that would be sweet! That would make my day/week/month for sure! Nothing beats dyno time like you said. But to have a solid starting point and not just a guess would really ease any fears about an initial start-up at home.
Click to expand...
Email me as much info as you can about your setup. I'll get you close

Lxmodguy (at) gmail.com

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Click to expand...
 
Lxmodguy your voluntary assistance is greatly appreciated. I'm like Uchoog and will just go for it armed with the very little I know. I figure after I get a good understanding of how this MS3 works I will be able to help local guys with their piles. But in the meantime I will take all the help I can get.
 
Lxmodguy
You have mail.. Thanks for the help! That is very kind of you to get me started... I really appreciate it.

Joe
 
72BBSwinger said:
Lxmodguy your voluntary assistance is greatly appreciated. I'm like Uchoog and will just go for it armed with the very little I know. I figure after I get a good understanding of how this MS3 works I will be able to help local guys with their piles. But in the meantime I will take all the help I can get.
Click to expand...
I would hold out for an ms3-pro if you haven't already bought an ms3. The harness is easy enough to make

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The whole harness thing is why im leaning toward EFI source. He says his harnesses use plug into all factory sensors including the factory map sensor. Everything is there to run all the factory sensors including knock sensors when im ready to cross that bridge. Then ist setup for GM TPS and Magnum IAC motor in F+B throttle body which has cable on the right side unlike a FAST or LS setup.
 
I know for a fact that the LSx harness is in production for the ms3-pro and the gen3 harness is next. You can expect a plug and play harness for the ms3-pro in just a bit. If you wanted one, I could probably build you one right now
 
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