Timing request 100 shot 360

360moparjunkie

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How is the nitrous activated?
Personally I put all the safety devices I could get in place...
I have button on my shifter
15960409360955733075997803648709.jpg
 

flyfish

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Many thanks. I'm thinking I will start at 28* then. Wow. huge difference for your old nitrous motor. 11.0 is fast imo. 13.8 pretty good too.
11.0 was on the 180 shot if I recall correctly...and yes, Colorado air is thin, and the DA in the summer goes over 9000' on a regular summer day.

My current stroker motor runs low 10's NA on e85,....needles to say, I like the current motor the best :)

Edit: Don't forget to run a colder plug than normal, like an NGK -9 or possibly -8.
 

360moparjunkie

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11.0 was on the 180 shot if I recall correctly...and yes, Colorado air is thin, and the DA in the summer goes over 9000' on a regular summer day.

My current stroker motor runs low 10's NA on e85,....needles to say, I like the current motor the best :)

Edit: Don't forget to run a colder plug than normal, like an NGK -9 or possibly -8.
Got it. I will check my heat range comparatively to NGK -9 OR -8. View attachment 1715569701
11.0 was on the 180 shot if I recall correctly...and yes, Colorado air is thin, and the DA in the summer goes over 9000' on a regular summer day.

My current stroker motor runs low 10's NA on e85,....needles to say, I like the current motor the best :)

Edit: Don't forget to run a colder plug than normal, like an NGK -9 or possibly -8.

15960519459304783705058404929380.jpg


15960519953374962733224211452370.jpg
 

360moparjunkie

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Here is condition of my #1plug being used b4 the spray. I will get my hands on cooler plugs such as the NGK's you mentioned.

TY as I did not know to run a cooler plug.
 

flyfish

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Yeah, I would definitely suggest a non-projected tip plug like the NGK 4554 R5671A-8 (the -9 is probably too cold). The plug you have with the long projection would be an issue. Below is the R5671A-8

NGK4554_d.jpg


Nitrous works well if you feed it plenty of fuel and bring back the timing; however, since the nitrous is an oxidizer, it will consume whatever it can find if you don't feed it enough to keep it happy (i.e. spark plugs, pistons, etc).
 

crackedback

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Having too much fuel hurts more nitrous set ups than not enough. Not enough, especially at this level, they burp and quit. Too much fuel they hammer EVERYTHING.

My 2 cents. Get the car sorted out at the track with max MPH and KNOW where the AF ratio is. You want the same basic ratio when on the juice. If the plate has jets and hasn't been monkeyed with from factory orfices, the nitrous jet should not be smaller than the fuel jet. At worst the 2 should be equal and that usually results in a fat tune up based on most manufacturer recommended fuel pressures.

There are plenty of sites that can help with inputs desired HP, fuel pressure for n2o/fuel jet sizing for a cleaner tune.

Pulling 4* would be a plenty. May not even pull any. IMO, always start conservative and sneak back up on timing. Better to pull to much and add back than not enough and maybe hurt something. Ran some 75-100 units where timing ended up right back where we started.
 

360moparjunkie

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Yeah, I would definitely suggest a non-projected tip plug like the NGK 4554 R5671A-8 (the -9 is probably too cold). The plug you have with the long projection would be an issue. Below is the R5671A-8
15960598893404583571098491001060.jpg

View attachment 1715569711

Nitrous works well if you feed it plenty of fuel and bring back the timing; however, since the nitrous is an oxidizer, it will consume whatever it can find if you don't feed it enough to keep it happy (i.e. spark plugs, pistons, etc).
Ok, Got Em. Quite the different electrode position. What plug gap do you recommend with my msd parts?
 

360moparjunkie

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Having too much fuel hurts more nitrous set ups than not enough. Not enough, especially at this level, they burp and quit. Too much fuel they hammer EVERYTHING.

My 2 cents. Get the car sorted out at the track with max MPH and KNOW where the AF ratio is. You want the same basic ratio when on the juice. If the plate has jets and hasn't been monkeyed with from factory orfices, the nitrous jet should not be smaller than the fuel jet. At worst the 2 should be equal and that usually results in a fat tune up based on most manufacturer recommended fuel pressures.

There are plenty of sites that can help with inputs desired HP, fuel pressure for n2o/fuel jet sizing for a cleaner tune.

Pulling 4* would be a plenty. May not even pull any. IMO, always start conservative and sneak back up on timing. Better to pull to much and add back than not enough and maybe hurt something. Ran some 75-100 units where timing ended up right back where we started.
Mr. Crackedback Sir, attached picture shows the jet sizes we ran on our old kb191 motor. Many bottles were ran through it until excessive bearing clearances forced us to pull it b4 it blew. All jet combos show larger fuel jets as recommended by N2O technicians. I want to understand more and certainly value your input. I do not have a/f gauge just yet or access to a track. What should my a/f ratio be @ wot?
Here is a pic of the old kb191 after countless flogging using these jets. They appear to be in good shape from what I can tell. My concern is the kb107's are far lighter & not as strong imo making them more vulnerable to failure.
Many thanks

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15960619434366947265522460189734.jpg
 

crackedback

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what plate/system are you running.

Just about anything with the fuel jet the same size or larger than the nitrous jet is a fat tune. Unless you are running 3 psi fuel pressure. A base 100 shot is usually in the .047 N and .042 F jetting with 6.5 psi fuel and 900 bottle pressures. Monty Smith, RIP, was one of "THE" guys on juice tuning and at NOS for many years as head tech/tuner. He used to speak about the horrible fat jetting in any of the base kit instructions. Monty used to suggest a fuel jet 6-10 sizes smaller than the nitrous jet at the suggest fuel pressures to clean them up.

Nitrous Outlet and Nitrous Express have a bigger juice jet than gasoline jet.

Flow Data | Jetting Charts | Tuning

https://www.nitrousexpress.com/images/conventionaljetting.pdf

Nitrous express seems to have a much larger nitrous jet for the HP, I'm used to seeing.

I'm just a guy that ran multiple kits on cars in the 1980's... when the plugs got electrodes burned off, we tossed more fuel at it. We were WRONG!!!! Filling a bottle before it got popular was $10.
 

j par

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One thing you can do that will make a great impression on you is call Mike thermos at nitrous supply... Pass for him by name and see if you can get him to answer some questions. Try to have a few questions written down. You'll be talking to one of the foremost gurus and pioneers of nitrous..
 

crackedback

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One thing you can do that will make a great impression on you is call Mike thermos at nitrous supply... Pass for him by name and see if you can get him to answer some questions. Try to have a few questions written down. You'll be talking to one of the foremost gurus and pioneers of nitrous..

Mike and Dale filled a TON of bottles for us in the 80's out of the NOS shop in Signal Hill, CA.
 

j par

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Mike and Dale filled a TON of bottles for us in the 80's out of the NOS shop in Signal Hill, CA.
Yes you get the impression right away when you talk to him that you're talking to somebody who knows exactly what they're talking about LOL he's well over 70 years old and you can say he's been doing this for a minute..
 

360moparjunkie

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what plate/system are you running.

Just about anything with the fuel jet the same size or larger than the nitrous jet is a fat tune. Unless you are running 3 psi fuel pressure. A base 100 shot is usually in the .047 N and .042 F jetting with 6.5 psi fuel and 900 bottle pressures. Monty Smith, RIP, was one of "THE" guys on juice tuning and at NOS for many years as head tech/tuner. He used to speak about the horrible fat jetting in any of the base kit instructions. Monty used to suggest a fuel jet 6-10 sizes smaller than the nitrous jet at the suggest fuel pressures to clean them up.

Nitrous Outlet and Nitrous Express have a bigger juice jet than gasoline jet.

Flow Data | Jetting Charts | Tuning

https://www.nitrousexpress.com/images/conventionaljetting.pdf

Nitrous express seems to have a much larger nitrous jet for the HP, I'm used to seeing.

I'm just a guy that ran multiple kits on cars in the 1980's... when the plugs got electrodes burned off, we tossed more fuel at it. We were WRONG!!!! Filling a bottle before it got popular was $10.
Wow. Another example of how there is so much to learn. According to your data my tech line had me doing it wrong all along. ALL my fuel jets are bigger than the N2O. No chance I wrote them all backwards when I called for sizes. Were we just lucky we didn't burn up the hypereutectic kb191's?
It is clear there is so much for me to learn.
My NOS Powershot kit is only good for up to 175 shot and has 2 spray bars. The nozzle sizes on my bag match their site nozzle chart.
Really do want an a/f meter. I think that's where the rubber meets the road regarding data. Looks like I will have to pick a side since I have true 3" duals w no crossover.
Just to be clear I greatly appreciate the shared information.
 

j par

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Wow. Another example of how there is so much to learn. According to your data my tech line had me doing it wrong all along. ALL my fuel jets are bigger than the N2O. No chance I wrote them all backwards when I called for sizes. Were we just lucky we didn't burn up the hypereutectic kb191's?
It is clear there is so much for me to learn.
My NOS Powershot kit is only good for up to 175 shot and has 2 spray bars. The nozzle sizes on my bag match their site nozzle chart.
Really do want an a/f meter. I think that's where the rubber meets the road regarding data. Looks like I will have to pick a side since I have true 3" duals w no crossover.
Just to be clear I greatly appreciate the shared information.
Yeah I'm sorry that most of my threads that are really there to teach people stuff end up being hey come along for the ride and are 29 pages long... but if you do get a chance and can sift through some of it all these questions are asked. I called all the places and all the tech lines. Remember most tech lines or just some kid in a Honda the drove into work and is looking at the computer or at some paperwork somebody else wrote. Most of it generic. When I finally talked to Mike thermos I knew I had a real veteran pro on the line...
 

j par

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I remember Mike did give me jet recommendations that were a little fatter on the nitrous side but again this all depends on how much fuel pressure you're running. I bought the Edelbrock plates and they had equal Jets... Edelbrock just sold out all of their nitrous stuff and guess who bought it all? Mike thermos...
 

360moparjunkie

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Yeah I'm sorry that most of my threads that are really there to teach people stuff end up being hey come along for the ride and are 29 pages long... but if you do get a chance and can sift through some of it all these questions are asked. I called all the places and all the tech lines. Remember most tech lines or just some kid in a Honda the drove into work and is looking at the computer or at some paperwork somebody else wrote. Most of it generic. When I finally talked to Mike thermos I knew I had a real veteran pro on the line...
Wow j par, Mike certainly sounds like a guru. Writing down questions in preparation sounds like sound advise. I will make effort to locate this man and be prepared to listen.
 

360moparjunkie

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Yeah I'm sorry that most of my threads that are really there to teach people stuff end up being hey come along for the ride and are 29 pages long... but if you do get a chance and can sift through some of it all these questions are asked. I called all the places and all the tech lines. Remember most tech lines or just some kid in a Honda the drove into work and is looking at the computer or at some paperwork somebody else wrote. Most of it generic. When I finally talked to Mike thermos I knew I had a real veteran pro on the line...
Thx again. I would like to hear how your timing box works for you once you run it.
 

j par

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Wow j par, Mike certainly sounds like a guru. Writing down questions in preparation sounds like sound advise. I will make effort to locate this man and be prepared to listen.
Just Google nitrous supply call and ask for Mike thermos and keep your ears open...
 

j par

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Thx again. I would like to hear how your timing box works for you once you run it.
Well I've already seen it work on my timing light. you have to reset your timing when you put that box on because it automatically retard your timing by four or five degrees by connecting the box. So after I connected the box I had to reset my timing. And in order to test it I of course had the nitrous bottle turned off and did not turn on the fuel side. Then I used a jumper to bypass the low pressure switch and the window switch to just ground the system relay. At that point I had my wife in the car with the system armed and had her hold the button on the shifter. And then while holding my timing light on the timing stripe I clicked the full throttle switch and could see the timing drop four degrees. As 4 degrees is what I had it set on inside the car...
 

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Everything I have seen or read says that the original "safe" jetting on the early kits were horribly fat. Monty Smith told of a test he did with an adjustable jet plate setup, where he started with the factory recommended jetting, which he then leaned out the fuel jet three times, picking up power each time. His final jetting tune gained 100hp without touching the nitrous jet. Or hurting the motor.
 

360moparjunkie

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Well I've already seen it work on my timing light. you have to reset your timing when you put that box on because it automatically retard your timing by four or five degrees by connecting the box. So after I connected the box I had to reset my timing. And in order to test it I of course had the nitrous bottle turned off and did not turn on the fuel side. Then I used a jumper to bypass the low pressure switch and the window switch to just ground the system relay. At that point I had my wife in the car with the system armed and had her hold the button on the shifter. And then while holding my timing light on the timing stripe I clicked the full throttle switch and could see the timing drop four degrees. As 4 degrees is what I had it set on inside the car...
Nice set up. I may move to a similar system. For now, I feel my timing is safe at 30* total using the distributor. Not being familiar with a set up like yours I will have to trust locking down the distributor cor now.
 

j par

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Nice set up. I may move to a similar system. For now, I feel my timing is safe at 30* total using the distributor. Not being familiar with a set up like yours I will have to trust locking down the distributor cor now.
The hardest part was just mounting it which is basically sticking it to the inside of my glove box LOL I think you have to hook up basically - piggyback everything onto your 6A l. I think it's three or four wires it's pretty darn simple...
 

360moparjunkie

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Everything I have seen or read says that the original "safe" jetting on the early kits were horribly fat. Monty Smith told of a test he did with an adjustable jet plate setup, where he started with the factory recommended jetting, which he then leaned out the fuel jet three times, picking up power each time. His final jetting tune gained 100hp without touching the nitrous jet. Or hurting the motor.
Reading the same type of posts on how fat the factory jets were is suprising.
Why have they not reposted leaner tunes?
Is there possibly a safe factor built into the old fat tubes helping keep you out of the lean territory in the event something went wrong?
Looking forward to p/u an a/f ratio assy. I'm interested in that w or w/o spray as it's just sounds like a gr8 idea.
Totally still learning here. Lots of studying
 
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