Thanks!!!
Well, I promised "short" but that's apparently just not possible for me.... LOL!
I have one more "rant" left in me, but I have no time right now; it'll have to wait until late, tonight...
Stay tuned.:blob:
whats my Horsepower gain with these mods?
- Thread starter Wild Card
- Start date
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Thanks!!!
Well, I promised "short" but that's apparently just not possible for me.... LOL!
I have one more "rant" left in me, but I have no time right now; it'll have to wait until late, tonight...
Stay tuned.:blob:
Bulldozer
free ice cream sandwiches
looking forward to it Bill.......keep up the great info
Thanks for the encouragement and kind words, folks!
I feel it incumbent upon me, to remind you patient readers that all my information about slant 6's and turbos is second-hand material; I have no actual hands-on experience with either at this point.
So, when I say "blah, blah, blah..." and seem to sound like I actually KNOW what I'm talking about.... I might... but, verify it with a more credible source before you take it to the bank. I could be WRONG...
ops:I've been wrong before... but, I try really hard not to be; it's so embarrassing!!!
The following is the last (sighs of relief, all around, I can hear them from here!!!) in this 3-part series that I have written on a subject near to my heart; forced inducted slant 6's. This time, I am going to try to justify why anyone would want to go this route, ($$$$$$$$$$$) and perhaps point out a few reasons why it may not be such a good idea, after all...
There are (at least) two kinds of people out there; those who just want to go fast, and those who want to go fast and prove something in the process.
Anybody can stick a big engine into a light car with easily predictable results: It's gonna be F-A-S-T!!!:cheers: Those 440+ cubic inch A Bodies are hard to outrun... and, with good reason! Ma made it pretty easy to drop an RB engine into an A-Body, and beyond getting it to hook, the problerms in getting it to go fast are not what you'd call "insurmountable." Whoever said, "There's no substitute for cubic inches," said a mouthful!
Senor' Schumacher has made the task of installing a big engine into a Dart or Duster a lot easier, with his motor mounts and custom-fit big-engine-in-a-in small car headers. The appeal is almost overwhelming, if you love "speed."
Some folks, though, look at that operation and say, "Ho Hum... It SHOULD be fast; big block in a small car.... so what?"
Some of those detractors want to produce a fun car with a smaller engine, but not TOO small.. There are the 318/340/360 guys who don't want the hasssles that go with the installation of a third-member-breaking big block, but would still like to trim a few Corvettes.
To them, a small-block is the answer; they don't want to mess with a slant six, because 1. They don't like the way they sound, and 2. it's hard to build one that will outrun most Corvettes. They probably have never SEEN an 11-second slant six car. Or, a 12-second one; thirteeen second slant six cars are not even that plentiful.... so, they know that they can stick a set of headers on a 340, raise the compression to 11.5:1, go with any one of a hundred different solid lifter cams, and presto," a low 12-second car that will embarrasss most street driven anything, Corvettes, included.
Enter the slant 6 turbo, the type of engine that most regular-guy Mopar enthusiasts think is an oddball, weird combination that yeah, may be pretty fast, but has to be expensive!!! Right? I mean, you don't get 2+ horsepower per cubic inch out of a slant six without a ton of costly, cutting-edge technology!
Well, that's just not true.
Let me point out what ~I~ have found out about this turbo six business that has made me wonder if it might not be actually CHEAPER than building an equal-power small block.
Feel free to disagree with me on my following arguments; like I said before... I can (and, probably WILL) be wrong, sometimes.
Here are a few ways that the turbo slant six can be a cheaper alternative to an equally-powerful small block.
For purposes of comparison, let's compare two 500 horsepower engines; one normally-aspirated 360, with time-honored, normal hop-up mods to produce 500 flywheel HP and a turbocharged slant six with equal power.
I am going to go to another, separate, message with my argument, because I invest a lot of time in this stuff, (painfully-slow typist!) and I would hate to hit the "send" button only to find out that this wonderful software had "timed out" and my message was "lost."
See you in the next message! Sorry for any inconvenience!
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
This IS the "next messsage."
Lets start with acquiring a rebuildable engine "core."
People give away slant 6's all the time. The one we are attempting to build was, in fact, given to us.
That's also possible with small blocks, but not as easy... and virtually impossible to find a "free" rebuildable 340. But, you don't HAVE to start wih a 340; it can even be a 318... but not as easy. A 500-horsepwer 318 is not hard to imagine, but probably would ned some pretty good heads, and 13-1 compression. It would also need to be rpm capable, to a large degree. (7,000?)
Not so hard with a 360, but they are not as much in abundance for free, I think. Could be wrong about that. More like $150 for a rebuildable "core."
Advantage, slant 6.
There are more of everything to buy for 8 cylinders, compared with 6. Pistons, valves, bearings, rings, valve springs... retainers, keepers...
Advantage, slant 6
The driveability of a turbo slant 6 is not much different from a stocker, in that the main thing(s) that destroy driveability, are radical cams with a fast, ragged idle, and big ports that allow the fuel to fall out of suspension in the ports, due to low velocities brought on by the size of the ports. The turbo slant six cams don't have much more duration than a stock one, and the ports, even in ported heads, aren't very big.
Advantage, slant 6.
The slant six's that have been turbocharged with high-boost (over 20 pounds,) don't seem to like rpm's and don't NEED rpm's to deliver the goods. Tom Wolfe and Ryan Peterson, the two examples I am citing here, both contend that their engines have a de-facto red line of about 5,500 rpm. With such a low red line, the reciprocating stresses, even with a 1-and-an-eithth-inch, stroke, are low enough that these engines will never fail due to bearing loads brought on by excessive piston speed, That is MY opinion; nothing more. Making 500 horsepower from a normally-aspirated small block is going to require that you spin it, probably fast enough to put engine life in jeopardy, if you do it very often.
Advantage, slant six (my opinion)
Because of the relatively low rpm operation of the turbo slant six, the valve train can remain, with stock pushrods and rocker arms, due to the low valve spring pressures required. The money you DON'T have to spend on needle bearing, rollerized rockers, special, heavy-duty pushrods and roller lifters is money saved.
Advantage, slant six.
The rear axle ratios in the two quickest A Body turbo slant six cars that I have seen evidence of, are 2.76:1 for the strip AND for the street. The turbo motors are weird, in that the car slows down with normally-"steep" rear gears, such as the 4.56:1 units often found in small-block cars. The turbo motor seems to make more power (not unlike a "fuel" motor) when it is "held back" and not allowed to increase rpm quickly. The significance if this is, the turbo motors also can use the same ratio for highway driving AND drag strip action. The small block "built" motor wouldn't think much of a 2.76:1 rear end on the drag strip, nor would it perform up to its potential, with a 4.56:1 on the highway. So, if you build a small block and it does double duty, you really need two sets of gears; one for the drag strip and one of the highway. No problem; you can change third members in a couple of hours (or, less.) But, they don't give away 8.75" A-Body housings these days, and neither is it cheap to buy and maintain two sets of third members, with different ratios; one for racing, blah, blah, blah...
The turbo slant six car can easily make do with a "one-ratio-fits-all" rear end. A late model, A Body 8.25" rear end from a junk yard will be lots cheaper (or, one out of an Aspen/Volare car) and will come with highway (and drag strip) gears already in it.... and is plenty strong for this application. More money saved.
Advantage, slant six
Because a high-stall converter is neither desirable nor necessary, turbo slant six converters are going to be cheaper than a 4,000-5,000-rpm unit that would be probably necessary for a wildly-cammed small block. Once again, the street driveability issue comes to light. The tighter slant six converter would not create as much heat as a high-stall, small block unit would, in daily driving.
Advantage, slant six
I BELIEVE that a turbocharged slant six motor is about 80-100 pounds
lighter than an iron small block. Can't prove that, but I'd bet on it.
Advantage slant six
The "bling" factor at shows might be of interest to some. A nice-looking small block has a LOT of competition at car shows and usually needs to have something really special, in cosmetic appeal, to win an award, just because there are so many... But, a slant six with a turbo on it is such a rarity, judges HAVE to pay attention.
Advantage, slant six
Then, there are the negative factors... and, there are some!
You can always put a turbo on a small block and go much faster than you could EVER hope to go with a slant six
Advantage, small block
No roller cams are available for slant six engine (no available roller-tappet cores) so, the ZDDP issue is always a problem.
Advantage, small block
You REALLY need both an intercooler AND a chemical intercooler (alcohol injector) for a hi-boost turbo slant six, and they don't give these away. None is needed on a normally-aspirated small block,
Advantage, small block
I don't think that a turbocharged slant six is a very good bracket car for drag racing, because of problems with turbo-spool on takeoff, and consistency. We are not building our car to run brackets; if we wanted to win bracket races, we'd build something else.
Advantage; NOT turbo slant six
Detonation under boost will destroy a turbocharged motor qon boost, uicker than you can say "turbo." So, fuel of sufficient octane is always going to be a problem. E-85 would be the perfect hi-octane fuel, but the quality of it at the pump is so fiffy, you just can't trust it when it comes to boosted motors. The normally-aspirated small block, with high-compression pistons is choosy when it comes to octane, too, but the results from normally-aspirated detonation are usually not as "catastrophic" as when it happens with, say, 25 pounds of boost. So, I have to say that the turbo slant six is a problem child in that area. Bear in mind that I originally said a "500-horsepower" turbo slant six. That's what we are talking about, here, But to be realistic, the great bulk of whatever turbocharged slant six motors come to pass, MOST will never see boost levels that high, and the picture changes greatly at 7-10 pounds of boost. But, that wasn't the argument, here. Soooooo...
Advantage, small block
The sound of a well-tuned, high-revving small block at full song, is music to almost everyone's ears. Slant sixes with turbos are quiet: the turbo impeller homoginizes the sound waves...
Advantage small block
You pays your money, and you takes your choice!!! Hope this helps. No telling how many things I missed...
But, I'm done! LOL!
srixon4406
TURBO TOAD
Holy s#@# Bill I've been waiting for the second part of this post for a hour and I thought U may have went to sleep but I see why it took U so long to post im going to set back now and enjoy the read
Keep at it
Aaron :happy1:rayer:
Keep at it
Aaron :happy1:
rayer:
Holy s#@# Bill I've been waiting for the second part of this post for a hour and I thought U may have went to sleep but I see why it took U so long to post im going to set back now and enjoy the read
Keep at it
Aaron :happy1:
Sorry, Aaron; like I said; I'm a really slow typist... besides, there's nothing here you don't already know...
srixon4406
TURBO TOAD
Yah bill I'm just trying to keep myself entertained through night
It's ok Bill. I would take your guesses and second hand info over most anybody else's real experiences. Thanks for contributing. Ain't heard back from WildCard. I guess his brains are runnin all over the floor from all this info. LOL
That was hard to resist wasn't it.
It was just callin my name.
Bulldozer
free ice cream sandwiches
i was being dead serious with that guestimate...
im still waiting for any kind of intelligible response or positive encouragement from vynn3
Bulldozer
free ice cream sandwiches
xs10 .. thank you Bill for taking the time to share your information and motivating those who are even remotely thinking about building their /6 's
Thanks, Scamp... Reading FABO can be quite an eduction.... there is a LOT of really good information on this site and some excellent "teachers," if one pays attention. Of course, you have to sift through the chaff to get to the wheat, sometimes.... lol!
Thanks to YOU for the kind words!!! It's gratifying to learn that someone actually reads all this B.S. I write, and maybe, gets something out of it.
I tried, with that 3-part thread, to paint an honest picture of the slant six vs. small block situation, with every consideration I could think of that was pertinent, being addressed. I'm certain I missed a few things, but it was unintentional.
Given the facts of the situation, and I am serious when I say this, it looks to me like the Moparite who inherits a 318 Duster from his grandmother and wants to play on the drag srtip (and, on the street,) would do well to consider yanking out that motor and sticking a turbocharged 225 slant six in place of it.
When I hear of that happening, I'll know that somebody with an analytical mind, read my rant and took it to heart!
I DO think it's the more practical (and, CHEAPER) alternative.
If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be wasting your time (and, mine) with all this drivel...:banghead:
Just my 2-cents, and probably over-priced, at that... :yawinkle:
No telling how many things I missed...Well, I have thought of a couple...
Due to the very-limited rpm range (less than 5,500rpm, tops,) the slant six turbo motor doesn't need a high rpm ignition system like a high-winding, 500 HP, normally-aspirated small block. A stock distributor will work fine, with no worries about effective spark at 7,000 rpm... 'cause, that boosted slant 6 is never gonna see even 6,000 rpm, much less 7,000...
Advantage, slant six
There are no aftermarket (aluminum, or otherwise) cylinder heads for the slant six, so the best you can do is to port the original head, and add some cheap 1/75"/1.5" valves (some folks have used 318 valves.) And, there's only ONE head to deal with, so there's just no place to spend money (of the quantity the V8 car can absorb) on the head. A complete ported head for a slant 6, ready to run, will be cheaper than a pair of aftermarket V8 heads that will support 500 horsepower, I believe.
Advantage, slant six
Now, I really AM done!
I hope that after reading all this meandering set of posts, I have made a case for it being actually cheaper to build a 500 HP turbo slant 6 than it is to make the same amount of power with a normally-aspirated, small block V8.
Thanks for listening!
Thank you Bill, I need to know these things so I can spread the word if I ever need to and not stick my foot in my mouth (witch I have dun many time in life) as I learn more about the engineering that went into these /6 engines and there capabilities
I don't see me doing a build like yours anytime soon, But!! I will be building a 225/6 and put my new head that Frank built for me, shaved just .050 on the head and I will most likely have the block shaved the same amount and (like you said) enjoy more displacement and just add my parts I have been running onto it.
Again thank you so much for your input and write up's I always take the time to read.
It sure would be nice if they made roller lifters and roller rockers for the 225/6 engines or would it really help considering the light spring load ?
This site is blest to have you here with us, and I mean this , not kissing up!! Just plain fact :happy1:
I don't see me doing a build like yours anytime soon, But!! I will be building a 225/6 and put my new head that Frank built for me, shaved just .050 on the head and I will most likely have the block shaved the same amount and (like you said) enjoy more displacement and just add my parts I have been running onto it.
Again thank you so much for your input and write up's I always take the time to read.
It sure would be nice if they made roller lifters and roller rockers for the 225/6 engines or would it really help considering the light spring load ?
This site is blest to have you here with us, and I mean this , not kissing up!! Just plain fact :happy1:
That means a lot to me, Mike. I am no expert on these motors, but with all the stuff I have been able to glean from the writings of Slant Six Dan, Shaker 223 (Tom Wolfe) and others who really DO know what they are talking about, I have managed to learn a few things.
Glad to share what little I know.
As far as your '66 goes, (I LOVE that little car!!!,) I think you will be VERY happy with the mods you've described.
Back in 1963, I had a friend who owned a nearly new '62 Lancer/904. He did a very FEW modifications to it.... I said a FEW, and I mean it.
Here's all he did:
4bbl carb on a Hyperpack intake manifold
Hyperpack cam and valve springs
Milled head (no porting, but milled .100")
HIGH LIFT ROCKERS!!! These were never meant to be used with a Hyper Pak cam... but, he forgot that they were already on the motor, when he had the cam installed... duh!
That's ALL... NO headers or other exhaust modifications...
To reiterate: 1 4bbl, cam, milled head.... that's IT.
That car ran 15.88 @ 88 mph!!!
I know, because I drove it at the strip.
They were having the Arkansas State Champpionships and at that time, the Lancer owner was a pharmacy-intern-apprentice and had to work Sundays. He gave me the keys and said, "Go see how she runs!"
I did...
There was this guy competing there who had bought a new '63 Falcon Sprint 260 V8, 4-speed, and a mutual buddy told me he had helped him put a 289 hi-performance solid lifter cam in it the week before the race. Sure enough, you could hear the ticking solid lifters and it had a decidedly ragged idle. Since he was claiming it was "stock" (I was the stocker tech guy at that strip) I classified the Lancer in as a 170 Hyper Pak, instead of a 225; that put me in the class with the cheating Falcon.
The best that Ford could do was a 16-flat (no cheater slicks back then)... and the Lancer had that covered by over e tenth (a car-length.)
He was steaming mad at having gotten outrun by a 6-cylinder Mopar, and an automatic, at that... but he wasn't about to protest, lest we look at HIS car... LOL!
I think that's the day I fell in love with slant six's!!! Broke two (2) rocker arms on the drive home from the strip... but, they waited to break until the drag racing was done...
Oh; one more thing: Because there was no header (the automatic starter solenoid was in the way of the Hyper Pak headers.... no way would the header fit, so he left the stock exhaust manifold on there, and I just removed the muffler for the race.
Mike, your car should be quicker and faster than that with a swapped-in 225, cam, headers and a ported/milled head. You should be running probably 15.50s at 90mph with that stuff.
Fun to drive!!! :hello1:
Thanks for the kind words, Memike!
I am not sure just how badly we slant 6 guys need a roller cam because of several factors: ZDDP is now pretty easy to get for supplementing your oil, making flat-tappet cams last longer. Valve spring pressures don't have to be "Battleship" strong because slant 6 valves are light and because most don't turn a whole lot of rpm.
There ARE roller-tip rockers available and they also come in 1.6:1 (hi-lift) versions, so they are worth looking into.
Sixpakattack just bought a set and they look nice!
See them at:
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=160082
I think a set of those would look great on your '66!!:cheers:
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