Activating MDS

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4ever69

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Had an idea, or brain fart, depending on how you look at it....

What if????

Pre-VVT 5.7 MDS, carb, MSD ignition conversion.

What if you could activate the solenoids on the MDS either by a trigger off the MDS box, manually or some other means? Like a nice high vacuum cruise, 70mph down the highway?

The MDS cylinders wouldn't pull fuel in, valves are closed, no vacuum, not sure if the carb would flood out the other cylinders and kinda negate the whole idea???

Any thoughts or flames?

Thanks,
CR
 
Had an idea, or brain fart, depending on how you look at it....

What if????

Pre-VVT 5.7 MDS, carb, MSD ignition conversion.

What if you could activate the solenoids on the MDS either by a trigger off the MDS box, manually or some other means? Like a nice high vacuum cruise, 70mph down the highway?

The MDS cylinders wouldn't pull fuel in, valves are closed, no vacuum, not sure if the carb would flood out the other cylinders and kinda negate the whole idea???

Any thoughts or flames?

Thanks,
CR
I dont think that's possible with the carb set up. I have that engine in my durango. My understanding of how it works is that it basically shuts not only spark off to the cylinders but turns the fuel injectors off. If you try to do it with a carb conversion on it, the closed cylinder intake port is still gonna get filled with fuel, thus flooding that cylinder when it does open back up, plus the carb cant automatically adjust to run leaner, thus flooding the other 4 cylinders. Plus the whole set up relies on electronically controlled lifter and an electric throttle position sensor/control. you have none of that with the carb set up. there's also a special sensor per cylinder that takes into account the oil pressure per cylinder. Only way to make it work is with fuel injection.
 
I dont think that's possible with the carb set up. I have that engine in my durango. My understanding of how it works is that it basically shuts not only spark off to the cylinders but turns the fuel injectors off. If you try to do it with a carb conversion on it, the closed cylinder intake port is still gonna get filled with fuel, thus flooding that cylinder when it does open back up, plus the carb cant automatically adjust to run leaner, thus flooding the other 4 cylinders. Plus the whole set up relies on electronically controlled lifter and an electric throttle position sensor/control. you have none of that with the carb set up. there's also a special sensor per cylinder that takes into account the oil pressure per cylinder. Only way to make it work is with fuel injection.
How are the cylinders going to get filled if the valves are closed? It's a carb, so the cylinders that are operating will draw the fuel. Raw fuel is not dropped with a carb, air pulled in by the pistons pull the fuel into the cylinders. What I don't know is that it's jetted for a 5.7L, if it's operating as a 3.35L, will it be pig rich??? Why can't I have a TPS on a carb? I do have the harness that has the sensors and solenoids... The factory system is mostly seamless and operates at slower speeds, as well as cruising, I'm interested in cruising speeds.

What happens if the solenoids are turned on and off, without any sensors? I bet it drops the 4 cylinders... Now, like you said, timing of the sequence might be critical to not back fire or pop, maybe it waits till after each exhaust stroke, then closes everything...

I'm a ways off from starting it up, but that might be a good experiment even at idle.. Wideband sensors, and power the solenoids on off....
 
How are the cylinders going to get filled if the valves are closed? It's a carb, so the cylinders that are operating will draw the fuel. Raw fuel is not dropped with a carb, air pulled in by the pistons pull the fuel into the cylinders. Yes, but you're likely to still get some pooling of fuel down in the intake ports, meaning that once you flip the switch and reactivate the cylinder, it'll flood out that cylinder, if pooled enough of course, seen fuel pooling on engines where theyve broken an intake rocker and the intake valve stayed closed. But it may not pool. I honestly can't say one way or the other. and im sure that'll depend on what manifold you run.

What I don't know is that it's jetted for a 5.7L, if it's operating as a 3.35L, will it be pig rich??? Yes, itll run way way rich, you "MIGHT" be able to pull this off if you'd switch to an aftermarket stand alone fuel injection kit that will bolt in place of the carb such as the Holley or Fitech kits. They adjust fueling on the fly so that might help the rich problem.

Why can't I have a TPS on a carb? I do have the harness that has the sensors and solenoids... The factory system is mostly seamless and operates at slower speeds, as well as cruising, I'm interested in cruising speeds. You could try rigging something up for the TPS but where are you gonna send the signal too? You also need to understand that the factory harness and sensors are designed to work with a computer that also changes the timing and fueling of the engine using the inputs from the TPS, fuel injectors, and O2 sensors when it shuts down those 4 cylinders, your MSD box is not capable of doing such.

What happens if the solenoids are turned on and off, without any sensors? I bet it drops the 4 cylinders... Now, like you said, timing of the sequence might be critical to not back fire or pop, maybe it waits till after each exhaust stroke, then closes everything... All of the cylinders that are deactivated have unique mutli- piece, hydraulic valve lifters that collapse when deactivated to prevent the valves from opening. Engine oil pressure is used to activate and deactivate the valves. Sensors are used to determine the oil pressure flowing to each solenoid valve for each cylinder to ensure proper pressure remains on each latching pin. Solenoid valves control the flow. It's not a simple on/off. The solenoids constantly adjust the flow of the oil. When activated, pressurized oil pushes a latching pin on each valve lifter, which then collapses the lifter, preventing the valve from moving. Its base still rides the camshaft, but its top remains stationary, held in place against the pushrod by light spring pressure but unable to move because of the much higher force of the valve spring.

Deactivation occurs during the compression stroke of each cylinder. This all is computer controlled via a complex algorithm to ensure all components function within a fraction of a microsecond(.040 microseconds per Dodge's advertising), ensuring a smooth operation and preventing valve damage.

You'll need all the components to make this work. Including the computer that receives, interprets and sends the signals from the sensors to the solenoids, as well as adjusting the timing and shutting off the spark and fuel to just those 4 cylinders. Youd have to find a way to shut down the spark manually as well.


I'm a ways off from starting it up, but that might be a good experiment even at idle.. Wideband sensors, and power the solenoids on off....

My answers in bold.
 
That
My answers in bold.
That's fine, but I disagree. It's a single plane intake and carburetor, the only way fuel gets in there is with vacuum. If it were port injected maybe, but even then I believe the vacuum in the plenum would suck most if not all of it out...

Thinking through the sequence a little bit, worse case you shut the valves after an intake charge, the plugs are still firing, if there's enough air, it will fire, it suppose to have the valves closed, just won't discharge the spent fuel.
 
That

That's fine, but I disagree. It's a single plane intake and carburetor, the only way fuel gets in there is with vacuum. If it were port injected maybe, but even then I believe the vacuum in the plenum would suck most if not all of it out...

Thinking through the sequence a little bit, worse case you shut the valves after an intake charge, the plugs are still firing, if there's enough air, it will fire, it suppose to have the valves closed, just won't discharge the spent fuel.
Well try it and see i guess. Worse case, you blow the thing up. Best case, it works.
 
I guess my main thought on this would be that really you lose the benefit of MDS if you’re planning to run a carb set up no matter what. Like stated, if the carb is jetted for a 5.7, you really won’t have precise fuel control at all as a 4cyl.

the extra $ you’d spend on MDS activation plus carb/intake set up I would think you could have EFi and be more efficient overall.
 
I guess my main thought on this would be that really you lose the benefit of MDS if you’re planning to run a carb set up no matter what. Like stated, if the carb is jetted for a 5.7, you really won’t have precise fuel control at all as a 4cyl.

the extra $ you’d spend on MDS activation plus carb/intake set up I would think you could have EFi and be more efficient overall.
What extra $$$ It's all there it's going to cost me $$$ to remove it, non MDS lifters and plugs...
 
What extra $$$ It's all there it's going to cost me $$$ to remove it, non MDS lifters and plugs...
I'm still curious as to how you're gonna overcome the timing changes and fuel changes when it switches from 8 to 4?
 
I'm still curious as to how you're gonna overcome the timing changes and fuel changes when it switches from 8 to 4?
Fuel changes I agree will be an issue, but timing changes? The non VVT doesn't change the cam timing, so when MDS is activated, it just drops every other cylinder in the firing order via the lifters. 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 to 1-4-6-7. Don't get me wrong, EFI is the way to go, a MSD 6013 came my way and an intake, so I decided to go in that direction, at least for now....

CR
 
First off, MDS lifters are pretty problematic and are not as robust as the standard lifters.

The logic behind the lifters is much more complicated than a simple vacuum signal at a given TPS, TPS/MAP will cross that area at many different times during a typical street drive and you would be going in and out of "MDS-mode" on a typical drive. There needs to be a vehicle speed input included with some level of hysteresis to avoid this.

Would it work with a carb? Yea, you could get it to work, I would move over to an Arduino controller to give your system some more logic. I would have no problem actuating it on/off with my EFI system, however, the benefits are minimal [to me]. However...you're still on a carb, which is not all that fuel efficient anyway. If mpg is your goal, it's time to move to EFI.

Another couple mpg at highway speeds is insignificant to me and not worth the reliability concerns. You would be better off working on reducing drag on the car, it wouldn't be hard to better mpg improvement and make the car faster [win/win].

If you get a kick out of playing with different features, EFI also gives you some options. I have no-lift shift on my car, 2-step launch control and will have a real %slip traction control here soon...
 
I agree the lifters aren't as robust, the motor came out of cop car, they go well over 100k without dropping lifters, the valve seats are more of a problem.

I understand the activation is not a simple one with the factory ECU, I believe I stated that, I'm interested in a cruise mode, I could even manually lock it out and only allow it to be enabled in high gear.

Yah I know EFI is the way to go, I'm a big supporter of it, this just happen to come my way, so this is the way I'm going for now. The MSD 6013 also has some programmable switches...

CR
 
I agree the lifters aren't as robust, the motor came out of cop car, they go well over 100k without dropping lifters, the valve seats are more of a problem.

I understand the activation is not a simple one with the factory ECU, I believe I stated that, I'm interested in a cruise mode, I could even manually lock it out and only allow it to be enabled in high gear.

Yah I know EFI is the way to go, I'm a big supporter of it, this just happen to come my way, so this is the way I'm going for now. The MSD 6013 also has some programmable switches...

CR


It sounds like you've made up your mind. I'm curious to hear how it works out when you are done.
 
I don't understand why you started this post other than to argue with everyone who brings up valid points against the concept. You've made up your mind that it will work, so go ahead and do it. Personally, I've learned that just because you stumble across cheap or free parts doesn't mean you should use them. Most the time you're just wasting your time finding out why the previous owner of the parts got rid of them so cheap.
 
I don't understand why you started this post other than to argue with everyone who brings up valid points against the concept. You've made up your mind that it will work, so go ahead and do it. Personally, I've learned that just because you stumble across cheap or free parts doesn't mean you should use them. Most the time you're just wasting your time finding out why the previous owner of the parts got rid of them so cheap.

:thankyou:

:lol::drama::popcorn:
 
Sorry if I came off as arguing, I thought it was constructive????

I haven't made up my mind, I was hoping to get some information from somebody that has experience with it, not to say that somebody that doesn't might have some insight.

Just because I disagree with somebody, doesn't mean I'm right, I'm not arguing, just disagreeing based on what I know, that's all...

Sorry for the disturbance...
 
The MDS system can run just fine with a carb. The carb can run across an entire range of RPM and CFM so when MDS is active, the CFM are cut in half. The principal of carb operation relies on the CFM rate to pull in the fuel so it will operate just fine.

The tricky part is turning the MDS on at the right time without a PCM to control it. Deactivation occurs during the compression stroke of each cylinder, after air and fuel enter the cylinder. Ignition then occurs, but the combustion products remain trapped in the cylinder under high pressure, because the valves no longer open. No air enters or leaves. During subsequent piston strokes, this high-pressure gas is repeatedly compressed and expanded like an air spring, but fuel is not injected.

If you use a solenoid to deactivate all the cylinders at the same time, some will turned on at the wrong point in the stroke. You risk having some cylinders closed under incorrect pressure that then may act as an air brake pulling power off the engine creating an unbalanced engine rotation.
 
The MDS system can run just fine with a carb. The carb can run across an entire range of RPM and CFM so when MDS is active, the CFM are cut in half. The principal of carb operation relies on the CFM rate to pull in the fuel so it will operate just fine.

The tricky part is turning the MDS on at the right time without a PCM to control it. Deactivation occurs during the compression stroke of each cylinder, after air and fuel enter the cylinder. Ignition then occurs, but the combustion products remain trapped in the cylinder under high pressure, because the valves no longer open. No air enters or leaves. During subsequent piston strokes, this high-pressure gas is repeatedly compressed and expanded like an air spring, but fuel is not injected.

If you use a solenoid to deactivate all the cylinders at the same time, some will turned on at the wrong point in the stroke. You risk having some cylinders closed under incorrect pressure that then may act as an air brake pulling power off the engine creating an unbalanced engine rotation.

If that's the case, why not use the TTL signal to the coils to deactivate it? The valves would already be closed for the the power stroke, fire the coils and deactivate the lifters at the same time, done.... Wasted spark would be the monkey wrench.....

Good info, thanks...

CR
 
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