Duster Questions and Advise

[chubz]

I managed to get myself into a 1970 Plymouth Duster project. I have no motor, no trans and the drums are shot.

Here come the questions (I did a search and did some reading so bare with me).

1). What are the major benefits to going to a 440 versus a 360? Aside from the power and weight difference. I plan on making a mild street machine, nothing to crazy maybe 400-500hp.

2). If I go to a 440 what headers can be used that do not require the cutting of the inner fender wells? Is there any issues removing the plugs, wires when installing that motor?

3). Power brakes versus Manual brakes. What is the major difference between the two? I plan on upgrading the brakes to the wilwood 4 piston kit at all four corners.

4). Power steering versus manual steering? Obviously powersteering would make it easier to steer, but is there a major issue with clearence on the headers or around the pump?

5). Motor mounts or a new K frame?

Okay well thats it for now if I can think of more I will post them up.

 

[dusted72]

I personnally think your goals could be met with the small block. Plus a 360 is a little easier and cheaper to buy initially.

 

[3406pk]

I will comment on some of questions, but can't make informed opinion on the power brakes. First I have a 74 Duster with a small block 360 stroked to 408 which pulls over 500 HP. It has disc brakes fronts/ drum rears without power and it stops really good. The car had power steering before the rebuild and repower, but I changed it to manual. It steers fine especially with the small block lower weight. I wanted the manual for header clearance since I put in TTI headers that run under floor.
1. If you want 400 HP you can get that with stock stroke 360 and up to 450 HP. If you put in stroker cranks you can get up to 550 HP. The big block will get those HP numbers easily with lower compression and stock parts. Weight is issue unless you go with aluminum heads on big block. If you ever want higher HP then go big block to start.
2. Headers for 440 are limited for under floor. TriY and some others but they are not true equal length headers. Most high HP big blocks use fenderwell headers. Almost necessary to use manual steer box or convert to rack & pinion style to use full equal length tube headers.
3. Power brakes just reduce pedal effort. If your Grandma or 100 lb wife/girlfriend drive car maybe you want it. It gets tight fit for 440 with the booster.
4. enough said.
5 Schumacher has conversion mounts for any motor to any style K member.
Good luck with your decisions. I'm sure some of the big block guys will have other opinions.

 

[Dusterdude72]

I have also been told that a 360 with a little work will make better power then a 440 and less weight...more room under the hood,cheaper parts,parts are easier to come by,no fenderwell cutting,better on gas(if that matters to you lol) and it could be done fairly cheaply.....consider the cost of buying a 440 compared to a 360....you will most likly pick up a 360 alot cheaper...and your going to need to beef up a 440 to push the numbers you want....when you can get a 360 for cheaper and built it for cheaper and make more or atleast the same kind of power....all in all it is your car and it boils down to what you want....just my thoughts on it is all. good luck with wichever route you decide to take!

 

[chubz]

Well I have a line on a 440 and a 727 transmission for 800 bucks for the pair. I haven't priced out a 360, I am sure its near or around the same price. I don't plan on taking the car to the strip or anything but I want to melt tires 8)

 

[kanders]

What engine did it originally come with?

 

[chubz]

What engine did it originally come with?

It came with a 318 so I have the small block V8 K-Frame.

I just checked and I can get a 360 and a 440 for 800 bucks...I am starting from scratch so I have no idea what I am going to do.

 

[kanders]

This is simply my opinion. For ease of installation, no extra fabrication, less changing major components(k members) or specialty pieces(schumacher) a small block is the way to go since your car was made for it already. A big block is heavy and you may need mods for brakes and front suspension but someone more knowlegeable could give you more details. That being said, when you say you have a big block Duster, the imagination does tend to conjure up images of a real tire burner. There are many small block A bodies I have seen on this site that run 1/4 mile times as good as the big blocks. It doesn't take much on these light cars to light up the tires so you just have to decide how much time and $$$ you want to put into it.

 

[Dusterdude72]

not sure what prices are running near you...but in michigan,dodge trucks are a dime a dozen for $400 or $500.00,thats a hole vehicle....with magnum 360's just begging to be plucked lol. 360 will in the end ....end up being a more cost effective ,equal power plant ( if not more power) easier cheaper parts to come buy,no k member swap out,no inner fender cutting,no suspension work,no braking work,no extra weight....when you break it down that way its pretty much a no brainer....don't let the fact that the word BIG BLOCK is such an intimidating set of words influence your engine choice.....bigger is not always better. yes a big block duster would be cool,dont get me wrong. but I think if you want to save alot of headache,money and time and still recieve the same end result and easier on the wallet for any future performance buys.....the 360 is the better of the two!

my duster came with a 318 but I bought it with no engine. I am going to put a 340 in it (when I get one) I am not looking to make big numbers as I am not going dragging with it and if I do...its just for fun. I want a good reliable peppy nice sounding and looking reliable duster. but to each his own,do with your car what you want to do to it

 

[chubz]

not sure what prices are running near you...but in michigan,dodge trucks are a dime a dozen for $400 or $500.00,thats a hole vehicle....with magnum 360's just begging to be plucked lol. 360 will in the end ....end up being a more cost effective ,equal power plant ( if not more power) easier cheaper parts to come buy,no k member swap out,no inner fender cutting,no suspension work,no braking work,no extra weight....when you break it down that way its pretty much a no brainer....don't let the fact that the word BIG BLOCK is such an intimidating set of words influence your engine choice.....bigger is not always better. yes a big block duster would be cool,dont get me wrong. but I think if you want to save alot of headache,money and time and still recieve the same end result and easier on the wallet for any future performance buys.....the 360 is the better of the two!

What's funny is I just saw a 1977 Ramcharger with a 360 for 250.00. If it is still around I may do that. I know over the years the blocks have stayed pretty much the same but due to smog and crap the heads have changed quite a bit. Is there anything specific or a year specific motor I should be looking for. I have heard the term X and J heads but not really sure what the difference is.

 

[kanders]

What's funny is I just saw a 1977 Ramcharger with a 360 for 250.00. If it is still around I may do that. I know over the years the blocks have stayed pretty much the same but due to smog and crap the heads have changed quite a bit. Is there anything specific or a year specific motor I should be looking for. I have heard the term X and J heads but not really sure what the difference is.

I have J heads on my 340, it's in the casting # but I have also seen discussions that mention X heads and I don't know the difference either but I'm sure if you do a search and type in X heads there will have been a few posts about them or somebody reading this thread could chime in with a quick mention about the difference.

 

[Dusterdude72]

if your going old style heads then the J heads are hood ones.....as said,the casting number will tell you that OR if you look of the front side of the heads you can see where that heads were actually molded in the shape of a J in front....as for a year specific engine.....I would be looking for late 80's earlier 90s - early 2000 360 magnum as they come with great flowing heads,closer tolerances,thinner rings for les friction,roller cam and a few other stong points also. I actually have one.....but its in my dodge ram truck lol and I aint selling it. but you can find them trucks a dime a dozen and for cheap(atleast around this area) most of them have bad transmissions in the 44rh and re and 46rh and re i beleive they are.....most of them go bad because chrysler in those years put a valve in the radiator where the transmission cooler lines run to and the valve WOULD ALWAYS go bad and then the fluid would not flow and inturn the fuid would over heat and dust a tranny in no time......so look for a dodge pickup truck or van or a jeep or durango or something,but your best luck would be looking in a dodge ram truck. who cares if its rusted to the ground or needs a tranny or a fuel pump or whatever you only need the engine. should be able to find one for around $500.00 or so. look on your local craigslist if need be...you can always find a good deal if you look hard enough. Good luck!

 

[chubz]

if your going old style heads then the J heads are hood ones.....as said,the casting number will tell you that OR if you look of the front side of the heads you can see where that heads were actually molded in the shape of a J in front....as for a year specific engine.....I would be looking for late 80's earlier 90s - early 2000 360 magnum as they come with great flowing heads,closer tolerances,thinner rings for les friction,roller cam and a few other stong points also. I actually have one.....but its in my dodge ram truck lol and I aint selling it. but you can find them trucks a dime a dozen and for cheap(atleast around this area) most of them have bad transmissions in the 44rh and re and 46rh and re i beleive they are.....most of them go bad because chrysler in those years put a valve in the radiator where the transmission cooler lines run to and the valve WOULD ALWAYS go bad and then the fluid would not flow and inturn the fuid would over heat and dust a tranny in no time......so look for a dodge pickup truck or van or a jeep or durango or something,but your best luck would be looking in a dodge ram truck. who cares if its rusted to the ground or needs a tranny or a fuel pump or whatever you only need the engine. should be able to find one for around $500.00 or so. look on your local craigslist if need be...you can always find a good deal if you look hard enough. Good luck!

Thanks! I may have a line on some Edelbrock heads so I might be good there. I did hear the Magnum block was the way to go, finding them out here is a pain though.

Basically I am looking for the best bang for the buck and in performance. I plan on keeping this car until I die, then I might sell it.

I will continue my search :munky2:

 

[rumblefish360]

You don't need the Edel. heads for your power goal and the only savings you'll be doing is in weight. Save money and port the iron head. OH, "X" heads have a 2.02 intake valve while all others have a 1.88 which is enuff for your power goal. All S/B heads are very similar in casting and power potental.
The Ramcharger has the least desirable heads. From 75 to the last of the Comando heads (308) the heads are not that great, but will port out well.

Ethier get them early or don't worry about it.

The bennifit of a "MAgnum" block is there a roller block and that's it. One cave eat about the Magnum block is it can not oil the older "LA" heads since it is not drilled for it. But you can drill it if you want to.

Blocks just prior to the Magnum were also roller and oil through the head! Check your junk yards.

The 440 is more expensive to do but does provide a seriously higher ceiling of performance and much more torque. Then, if some nut says "But I'll just stroke the 360.... well, you can just stroke the 440 to over 500 cubes. So there, it all cost money.

 

[chubz]

The 440 is more expensive to do but does provide a seriously higher ceiling of performance and much more torque. Then, if some nut says "But I'll just stroke the 360.... well, you can just stroke the 440 to over 500 cubes. So there, it all cost money.

I have learned over time that there is always going to be somebody bigger and faster. I just want to peel some tires, have a reliable car and put a smile on my face.

 

[MopaR&D]

I think a 360 with those Edelbrock heads (mildly ported) would give you about 400-450 HP depending on the rest of the combo. That's about the max for streetable HP out of a stock stroke small block, if you want more either stroke the 360 or go big block. Personally I think a hot small block will be enough for what you want and will cost the least amount. Plus you'll have a better balanced car that will handle better than a BB A-body, especially if you beef up the suspension.

Just an FYI but the 318 is basically the same thing as a 340 or 360, just smaller displacement. 318's can be brought up to the high 300's HP-wise, just in case you're looking for some extra power for now.

 

[stroked 340]

My '70 duster with a Edelbrock headed 360 has just under 400 h.p.,and slips right in place under the hood no fabricating of anything needed can't say that about putting a bigblock in a body,put the smallblock in,and put big blocks in your rearview mirror its fun..:toothy10::toothy10::toothy10:

 

[1968FormulaS340]

Other than cost and valve size "X" and "J" heads are the same. The reason they are called "X" or "J" is because they will have an X or J cast next to the spark plug holes.

Some very early "X" heads don't have an X and some other castings will have other letters…. Some you go by the casting number.

I don't know what that "Front being shaped like a J" stuff is all about.


Anyway……

In my opinion…

360 will give you the power you are after with out the headache of converting to a big block.

If you go small block…. stay power brakes if your car has it. If it doesn't I wouldn't bother.

Same with the power steering…. Use what you have. A small block A-Body is easy to steer with non power, power is just a bonus.

 

[Dusterdude72]

take a good look at a set of J heads....Take a look behind your alternator almost where the head meets the block.....its not an actual J its just the shape of the head where it was molded resembles a J where as the X heads did not use this mold and it does not have the same shape.....its just one of the ways you can identify between the different heads. and old mopar guy taught me that one.

 

[rumblefish360]

I think a 360 with those Edelbrock heads (mildly ported) would give you about 400-450 HP

Ummmm, think of the Edelbrock RPM advertisement. (A flat top piston near or at zero deck height.) A 340 with there gear makes 417 HP. Due note that there cam is a slow ramp, low lift (AKA whimpy) cam that does not take advantage of the better flowing ports of there head.

450 HP is an easy to do thing and porting the Edelbrock heads is not needed.

depending on the rest of the combo.

Combo is everything!

That's about the max for streetable HP out of a stock stroke small block, if you want more either stroke the 360 or go big block.

He's looking at a 360 or a 440. Also, I don't think he'll need to look for more HP than what your saying is the limit of streetabilty, that term is often a blurrred line and will depend on who's driving what. LOL

Personally I think a hot small block will be enough for what you want and will cost the least amount. Plus you'll have a better balanced car that will handle better than a BB A-body, especially if you beef up the suspension.

OOOOOO, that last sentence is a misonomer and up for a ferce debate with those that love there B/B A body. The big block can be ligtened up to stock S/B weight. And the cars suspen. can be upgraded to suite, though, do know, that i'm with the idea of a 360 between the rails.

 

[1968FormulaS340]

take a good look at a set of J heads....Take a look behind your alternator almost where the head meets the block.....its not an actual J its just the shape of the head where it was molded resembles a J where as the X heads did not use this mold and it does not have the same shape.....its just one of the ways you can identify between the different heads. and old mopar guy taught me that one.

It this what you are talking about?

 

[rumblefish360]

Chubz, since this is a, "Spend my money" like type post, I'd do the 360 as mentioned above and... (This is what I would do if it were me...) Zero deck or get dang near it with the pistons like a KB107, use the Edel. heads and intake w/750 cfm's and find a 1-3/4 tube header. I myself would be looking at a Comp cam, Lunati or a Huges cam. Something like this Huges cam is real nice;

Camshaft Technical Details
Intake Valve Lift 1.5 .548"
Exhaust Valve Lift 1.5 .555"

Intake Duration at .050" 237°
Exhaust Duration at .050" 242°

Lobe Separation Angle 108

Sweet Spot RPM 2500 - 5900

The cams duration is right in there and the lift is in the sweet area of the heads best flow lifts. A low 108 C-line for a hell of a chop in the idle. Excellent performing RPM band for street cars.

Crap, I think I just sold myself on the next cam, LOL!

 

[rumblefish360]

He means next to the spark plug, the letter should be there.

 

[ramenth]

He means next to the spark plug, the letter should be there.

Actually, Rob, take a look at what DusterDude said about the front of the head and where 68Formula said about the letter next at the plugs...

I be damned...DusterDude was right about this little "J" looking thing on the head behind the alternator on the "J" heads. Had to take a look at mine. Then looked at my "19's". It's on those, too. And on all my cop heads from all those '80s cop car I scrapped...

 

[chubz]

Chubz, since this is a, "Spend my money" like type post, I'd do the 360 as mentioned above and... (This is what I would do if it were me...) Zero deck or get dang near it with the pistons like a KB107, use the Edel. heads and intake w/750 cfm's and find a 1-3/4 tube header. I myself would be looking at a Comp cam, Lunati or a Huges cam. Something like this Huges cam is real nice;

Camshaft Technical Details
Intake Valve Lift 1.5 .548"
Exhaust Valve Lift 1.5 .555"

Intake Duration at .050" 237°
Exhaust Duration at .050" 242°

Lobe Separation Angle 108

Sweet Spot RPM 2500 - 5900

The cams duration is right in there and the lift is in the sweet area of the heads best flow lifts. A low 108 C-line for a hell of a chop in the idle. Excellent performing RPM band for street cars.

Crap, I think I just sold myself on the next cam, LOL!

Really good info!

Now I heard a few blokes talking about stroking the motor to a 408, how would that effect my cam choice? Since the pistons are technically moving faster should that be a concern?