Intake gasket opinions

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Ironmike

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Boy I've been down this friggin road before........

So this engine has 13 dyno pulls, plugs pulled a couple times and they looked great. Off the dyno, into the car and after a short first ride, it's smoking. Decided to jump on it hard and actually killed number 8 plug, it fouled so bad.

Bring it home, all plugs except # 1, and #2, are black oil fouled. Compression check good. Look down the intake with my bore scope and HELLO! Oil pooled in every closed intake valve. Looked through the sparkplug holes and saw oil actually pooled on a couple pistons.

My first thought.....and hope, was that the intake is really sucking oil. It sure LOOKS like it, but I'm really not buying it yet. Why would 13 dyno pulls not show it then?

Cleaned all gasket material off both surfaces and placed the intake back on with no gasket. I bolted the passenger side down and measured the gap at the driver side. I could barely slip a .008 feeler gauge in there. .028 gap at front china wall and .035 at the rear. Couldn't get a "wobble" before bolted down.

Seems to me I should have way more gap on the unbolted side. I had Edelbrock .062 gaskets on there. I run header evacs, no PVC.

Well, I don't like where this is probably gonna go, but here's a pic of one side.
oil.jpg
 
You are running header evacs, but is the other end of the valve covers sealed off or vented?
You won't see much gap the way you are checking that intake unless you put a gasket on the bolted down side, so it moves the intake up away from heads. Properly machined, it will slide down onto both heads without gaskets perfectly, if the bolt holes have enough room to move. I don't think that measurement showed a problem.
Maybe a leakdown test would be a good idea.
 
Did you sleeve the head bolt holes, or port the wall between the intake ports so much that the cylinder head rocker shaft bolt holes were thin? If it is thin there, it will break through after the oil pressure expands and contracts the port wall. Did rocker shaft bolts or studs puncture the thin intake port wall? One tiny hole anyplace will send oil throughout the engine? Yes, I speak from personal experience. Puddles of oil.

The bottom of the intake gasket is oil soaked. If you bolt the .008 side down with the other side tight you may end up with with a gap at the bottom of the intake. Set the intake back down with no gaskets or bolts and measure the top and bottom with feeler gauges on all four corners.
 
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IQ52 said:
Did you sleeve the head bolt holes, or port the wall between the intake ports so much that the cylinder head rocker shaft bolt holes were thin? If it is thin there, it will break through after the oil pressure expands and contracts the port wall. Did rocker shaft bolts or studs puncture the thin intake port wall? One tiny hole anyplace will send oil throughout the engine? Yes, I speak from personal experience. Puddles of oil.

The bottom of the intake gasket is oil soaked. If you bolt the .008 side down with the other side tight you may end up with with a gap at the bottom of the intake. Set the intake back down with no gaskets or bolts and measure the top and bottom with feeler gauges on all four corners.
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You may be onto something here. 2 bolt holes on each head tubed. ...however, I gotta have faith that my guy did it right. I went right there as soon as the intake came off and it was about the only place in the port that was dry. I'm skeptical though, I'm going to try priming the oil pump tomorrow while watching inside the ports.

With that vein of thought though, why would #5 and 7 be full of oil?

Edit: Almost forgot, what about 13 dyno pulls and perfect plugs after? Maybe took some time to develop? Really reaching here....
 
you probably don’t sit much at idle (or your highest vacuum reading) during the dyno? If you’re leaking oil at the intake manifold, it’s only going to leak significantly at idle or cruise, then the gasket must become over saturated, then can leak oil through to the ports. On the dyno, I’m sure you’re loading the engine up hard and have minimal manifold vacuum except during warm up. Maybe this explains why it didn’t show up until in the vehicle.
 
There is deadhead oil pressure in the cylinder head rocker shaft threads between 5 & 7 coming from the rocker shaft.
 
Definitely the tubes. Confirmed today. I still don't quite get how cylinders 3,5 and 2,4 are affected. But they are!
 
Salt in the wound man. Sorry about that.

I had the same tube problem and oil on top of every piston. I drilled the oil hole in the head like the big blocks are, and bypassed the head bolt hole. That hole went through the water jacket so the oil hole was sleeved with a steel tube into the rocker stand. We then re-sleeved the head bolt hole and didn't re-drill those oil holes.

That head worked great. Then other head blew oil out the rocker shaft bolt hole. Same thing, oil in every cylinder.

So we went to the LAX heads (yep, the LA heads) and used Chevy stud mounted rockers. After a little work they made some pretty good horsepower.
 
Dropped them off at my guy and boy was he pissed. He said he has way too many hours in these to just give up. They did make a ton of power. He told me he doesn't think there is a reliable fix, the way it is now.. felt pretty bad about it too. We could seal, epoxy, glue....."oil always finds a way through".

Pretty sure it held up on the dyno because it's a constant 160 degrees. Once I started heat cycling to 185 ish, back an forth, expansion-contraction just f#%÷'d everything up. Just my own theory.

So the thought right now is maybe convert to pushrod oiling. I'm already running lifters that will work, the MRL(BAM Products). My lifter bores are bushed and I run Smith Bros 3/8 oil through rods, and Hughes rockers. Not 100 percent on the rockers capability...

I THINK all I need to do is order new adjusters with an oil hole, block the passage in the block, and maybe good to go........I think.

He's doing some research tonite, I'm doing my research......if you can help me along the way, I'd sure appreciate it. I know quite a few guys have gone to pushed oiling. I'm just not sure if my ****'s all compatible. If i have to order a new rocker setup I will. At this point i just want it done so i can move on. JEEZ!:wtf:
 
Understand man,making horsepower ,requires attention.
Be relaxed ,this stuff is frustrating. ...
 
Ironmike said:
Dropped them off at my guy and boy was he pissed. He said he has way too many hours in these to just give up. They did make a ton of power. He told me he doesn't think there is a reliable fix, the way it is now.. felt pretty bad about it too. We could seal, epoxy, glue....."oil always finds a way through".

Pretty sure it held up on the dyno because it's a constant 160 degrees. Once I started heat cycling to 185 ish, back an forth, expansion-contraction just f#%÷'d everything up. Just my own theory.

So the thought right now is maybe convert to pushrod oiling. I'm already running lifters that will work, the MRL(BAM Products). My lifter bores are bushed and I run Smith Bros 3/8 oil through rods, and Hughes rockers. Not 100 percent on the rockers capability...

I THINK all I need to do is order new adjusters with an oil hole, block the passage in the block, and maybe good to go........I think.

He's doing some research tonite, I'm doing my research......if you can help me along the way, I'd sure appreciate it. I know quite a few guys have gone to pushed oiling. I'm just not sure if my ****'s all compatible. If i have to order a new rocker setup I will. At this point i just want it done so i can move on. JEEZ!:wtf:
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You can get oil to the adjuster with pushrod oiling but you still need to feed the shafts. If the Hughes rockers have cup adjusters it shouldn't be an issue. If they have the ball adjusters you have to do some work on the rockers.

Mike at B3 racing engines can convert your rockers to cup adjusters and get the shafts oiled.
 
Looks like cup adjusters. You can just go to pushrods with oil holes I *THINK*. As long as you have pressurized oil to the lifters.
 
yellow rose said:
You can get oil to the adjuster with pushrod oiling but you still need to feed the shafts. If the Hughes rockers have cup adjusters it shouldn't be an issue. If they have the ball adjusters you have to do some work on the rockers.

Mike at B3 racing engines can convert your rockers to cup adjusters and get the shafts oiled.
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Hughes rockers ,are a steal... for the price...
 
The Hughes have ball type adjusters. I would probably buy cup type adjusters and have Ethan at Smith replace the cups with balls on my rods. They already have holes.

Why would I still need to get oil to the shafts?

Ya know.....Mike came to my mind immediately . He's a big proponent of cup adjusters with ball/ball rods. I already planned to buzz him tomorrow. Wealth of knowledge.
 
Ironmike said:
The Hughes have ball type adjusters. I would probably buy cup type adjusters and have Ethan at Smith replace the cups with balls on my rods. They already have holes.

Why would I still need to get oil to the shafts?

Ya know.....Mike came to my mind immediately . He's a big proponent of cup adjusters with ball/ball rods. I already planned to buzz him tomorrow. Wealth of knowledge.
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If you are block off the oil from the cam, you won't have any oil at the shaft IF you have ball adjusters. If you have cup adjusters then it will oil the shafts.

Calling Mike is your best bet.
 
I can't understand why the tubes are leaking. K&S tubing, lock in place with JBWeld, drill two oiling holes, and its done.
edelbrock bolt and push-rod tubing 002.JPG
edelbrock bolt and push-rod tubing 004.JPG
edelbrock bolt and push-rod tubing 007.JPG
edelbrock bolt and push-rod tubing 008.JPG
 
Mike converted my Hughes rockers to cup adjusters when he made my correction shims for my Trick Flow 270's. I now have oiling from the MRL lifters through the pushrods just for the adjusters, and I still oil the shafts through the feed from the cam. I am hoping this is a good compromise to using full time oiling for the shafts. I wasn't aware of that modification until well after the shortblock was assembled and in the car. I didn't want to do the groove in the cam journal to get full time oiling to the shafts as I didn't want to steal oil from the mains. This seemed like the best alternative for now until a later date when the shortblock comes out and is easier to modify. The other upside to this approach is that it gives the rocker better geometry and less loss of lift.
 
pittsburghracer said:
I can't understand why the tubes are leaking. K&S tubing, lock in place with JBWeld, drill two oiling holes, and its done.View attachment 1715160442 View attachment 1715160443 View attachment 1715160444 View attachment 1715160445
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My tubed boltholes are the 4 longer studs, which 2 are under actual pressurised oil to number 1 and 3, and 6 and 8, feeding the shafts. They are visible right between the above intake ports. I'm sure you know which 2 I mean.

Don't understand it either, man. He knows his ****, they were pressed and sealed and here we are.
 
pittsburghracer said:
I can't understand why the tubes are leaking. K&S tubing, lock in place with JBWeld, drill two oiling holes, and its done.View attachment 1715160442 View attachment 1715160443 View attachment 1715160444 View attachment 1715160445
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This hole looks familiar, we did that to a pair of alum. heads onan approx. 600 horse sbc I had. Altho it was in a diff. location. We used moroso A-B epoxy in it, and it held up very well. It`s what the stuff is made for . ----(it`s about the only product I`ve ever used from moroso that I liked !)
 
I bought some Morroso AB epoxy years ago and after mixing it didn’t use it. I didn’t like how thick it was for the jobs I do. I use mostly Splash-Zone epoxy and for sealing my tubes in I like JBWeld.
 
pittsburghracer said:
I bought some Morroso AB epoxy years ago and after mixing it didn’t use it. I didn’t like how thick it was for the jobs I do. I use mostly Splash-Zone epoxy and for sealing my tubes in I like JBWeld.
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I don't really like the amoroso for anything. I'm with you PBR. I like something that isn't so thick.
 
yellow rose said:
Mike at B3 racing engines can convert your rockers to cup adjusters and get the shafts oiled.
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Well I had 2 choices, the above suggested by YR, or 1250 to 1800 bucks and 5 to 10 weeks for T&D's.

MIKE will have me going in a couple weeks or so. What a great Mopar business guy! And the Rose knows, if you're in a bind.

He has a fixture for drilling them so the shaft gets oil and add cupped, oil thru adjusters and I should be golden! Just need new pushrods. Might even get by with Smith Bothers just swapping the cups for balls.

Or, if you're me......something won't work quite right.:BangHead:
 
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