416 issues - losing patience

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340kid

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I'm quickly losing patience on my sons 416 Duster, we get one issue resolved and another one comes.
last week we broke a crane rocker adjuster - got that fixed, ordered new adjusters and pushrods from smith brothers - now the geometry is better with only a thread or so showing beneath the rocker.

thought everything was fine, went to cruise night on monday and the motor ran very hot, it was approx 75 degrees out and the trip was only 3 or 4 miles and the motor gradually climbed to 180,190,200 then to over 220 on the guage - it never boiled over though.

here is what we have for cooling
Champion 3 row 22" radiator with their shroud and 2 10" fans http://www.championradiators.com/page/474327623

stock water pump - autozone type
160 thermostat with weep hole
heater lines capped

i checked timing last night and initial was around 17/18 total 38 with vacuum advanced plugged - we have this always plugged

i bought a new T-stat ( napa superstat) 160 degree but have not put it in yet. we originally had a 180 in there and noticed no difference

any suggestions ?

My other issue is the oil pressure at idle seems way too low, upon fire up cold pressure the guage goes to 40+ but as the oil heats up the guage stays around 10+or -, we are running Valvoline (not street legal) 20/50..
at cruise say 3500 rpm the pressure is around 40 but at idle seems way too low,

thanks
 
I ALWAYS toss my new T stat in a pan of boiling water to make SURE it works. I have gotten 2 bad ones in the same day . im thinking your T stat is probably not opening
 
Well, that Crane rocker adjuster...are you saying that it was a geometry issue as to why it broke? If so, that's just that it wasn't set up quite right. And the cooling issue, were you guys in a bumper-to-bumper traffic kinda thing? 220 sucks, and I start getting concerned at that point, but seriously, there shouldn't be any damage going on unless it starts pinging, IMO.

Having the heater hooked up would help things too. At least you could crank it up and maybe drop a few degrees. As I said in another thread, I'm a big fan of good-sized engine oil coolers, preferably with a fan......just not mounted in front of the radiator.
 
And I am not sure you should have a 160 thermostat in that motor. I would be rumming a 180 if it was me.
 
dont recall jetting it is written on dyno sheet - we did mess with jetting to get proper air/fuel ratio
 
Well, like I was saying in the other post, lets start with the free stuff (or almost free stuff).

1. Make sure there is no air in the system. Get the car on a slant, or jack the front end up so that the radiator cap is the highest point on the engine. Open the radiator cap (with the engine cool obviously). Warm the car up with the cap off. Get it hot enough to open the T-stat, see water running by, lightly rev the engine a little....do this for a few minutes after the T-stat opens (add water as needed)...this should get any air bubbles out of the system, and it's free.

2. I'm a fan of Water Wetter, usually good for at least a 10 degree drop (about 8 bucks).

3. Might want to look into a better water pump. I can't say for sure that is an issue because I ditched mine years ago before I built my stroker...but it probably won't hurt. Mine is a Milodon mechanical pump (about 80 bucks).

What oil filter are you using? I use to have low oil pressure with my motor too~ 15 hot at idle and ~50 above 2500 RPM (10-40 conventional oil). This might sound strange, but I switched oil filters to a Fram HP1 and now I have 25 hot at idle and 70 hot above 2500RPM....just something to try.

Totally unrelated, most strokers I have seen (mine included) like ~34° total timing...just food for thought.
 
flyfish said:
Well, like I was saying in the other post, lets start with the free stuff (or almost free stuff).

1. Make sure there is no air in the system. Get the car on a slant, or jack the front end up so that the radiator cap is the highest point on the engine. Open the radiator cap (with the engine cool obviously). Warm the car up with the cap off. Get it hot enough to open the T-stat, see water running by, lightly rev the engine a little....do this for a few minutes after the T-stat opens (add water as needed)...this should get any air bubbles out of the system, and it's free.

2. I'm a fan of Water Wetter, usually good for at least a 10 degree drop (about 8 bucks).

3. Might want to look into a better water pump. I can't say for sure that is an issue because I ditched mine years ago before I built my stroker...but it probably won't hurt. Mine is a Milodon mechanical pump (about 80 bucks).

What oil filter are you using? I use to have low oil pressure with my motor too~ 15 hot at idle and ~50 above 2500 RPM (10-40 conventional oil). This might sound strange, but I switched oil filters to a Fram HP1 and now I have 25 hot at idle and 70 hot above 2500RPM....just something to try.

Totally unrelated, most strokers I have seen (mine included) like ~34° total timing...just food for thought.
Click to expand...

Water wetter? Thought that was for use in straight water only?

Agree with you might have some air. In the past I have used a pressure tester to try to eliminate air pockets. Must have worked, after pressurizing it took more coolant.
 
340kid said:
Champion 3 row 22" radiator with their shroud and 2 10" fans http://www.championradiators.com/page/474327623
Click to expand...

Ditch their shroud and fans. My dad had them on his Coronet with a 440 and it did the same thing in very mild temps as yours did, but with no racing. It ran at 180 deg cruising at 45 mph with no shroud or fans at all, with their dual fan setup and shroud is would spike over 220 on the same day, same speed, same drive. Both test were done with a Champion 26" alloy radiator.
 
thanks for the advice, you got me thinking about air in the system when you mention to get the cap at the highest point - we are running a large braided hose for connections to the radiator the upper hose tilts upward from the cap and then down to thermo housing - can this be trapping air ???
 

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i was contemplating this - from what i can find the 10" fans pull 900cfm each !
was considering purchasing the MP viscous fan package - my concern is spacing between the pump snout and radiator looks like i have approx 3" - how thick is the viscous fan ???
 
dano said:
Ditch their shroud and fans. My dad had them on his Coronet with a 440 and it did the same thing in very mild temps as yours did, but with no racing. It ran at 180 deg cruising at 45 mph with no shroud or fans at all, with their dual fan setup and shroud is would spike over 220 on the same day, same speed, same drive. Both test were done with a Champion 26" alloy radiator.
Click to expand...


i was contemplating this - from what i can find the 10" fans pull 900cfm each !
was considering purchasing the MP viscous fan package - my concern is spacing between the pump snout and radiator looks like i have approx 3" - how thick is the viscous fan ???
 
340kid said:
thanks for the advice, you got me thinking about air in the system when you mention to get the cap at the highest point - we are running a large braided hose for connections to the radiator the upper hose tilts upward from the cap and then down to thermo housing - can this be trapping air ???
Click to expand...

Air in these systems is not a big deal. All I have ever done (I run a heater) is to fill the system, with the heater connection under the stat open, until you "get water." You already have a bleeder in the stat.

There is so much flow with the stat open that air in the top hose would never be a problem. It will be flushed into the rad tank.
 
340kid said:
thanks for the advice, you got me thinking about air in the system when you mention to get the cap at the highest point - we are running a large braided hose for connections to the radiator the upper hose tilts upward from the cap and then down to thermo housing - can this be trapping air ???
Click to expand...

Anything is possible. I chased a cooling system problem on a previous hot rod. Threw everything but the kitchen sink at it. Ended up going with stock diameter pulleys, 50/50 coolant and distilled water, 192* t-stat and a thermo controlled clutch style fan. Problem solved.

Not saying it has anything to do with your radiator but over the few years I have been on here I have seen several folks mentioning cooling troubles with them. If I ever get back to my nightmare it has a 26" radiator from Smith Racing Radiators , it was quite a bit more $$ than the Champion one but there is a fellow here with a HEMI in his Dart and he does not have any cooling issues that I am aware of, which is why I bought it. I have the one with 2 rows of 1.25" tubes.

Just checked, Water Wetter can be used with coolant. I used something similar to Water Wetter several years ago and the directions said to use it with straight h2o. I know some folks have mentioned it working for them but to me it is sort of a snake oil type of thing.
 
Are the fans turning in the right direction? I agree on the bleeding the air out too. Also - years ago I had a 383 Dart I sold saying it had a cooling problem I couldn't find and was frustrated with. I had changed the cam and while the radiator was out a mouse had goneint the radiator and his corpse got stuck in the lower hose - at least that's what I was told had hapened.
 
340kid said:
i was contemplating this - from what i can find the 10" fans pull 900cfm each !
was considering purchasing the MP viscous fan package - my concern is spacing between the pump snout and radiator looks like i have approx 3" - how thick is the viscous fan ???
Click to expand...
Yep tried one on mine not enough room, So now I have a 3" spacer and a flex fan, fan is approx. 1 inch from radiator I also have a Flow Cooler water pump : $90.00 360/5.9L/c21_37_198/p110/Water-Pump:-1700%3Cbr%3EMOPAR:Chrysler,-Dodge,-Plymouth%3Cbr%3E(1970-91)/product_info.html

no heat issues, in fact it takes 20 minutes to warm up, when I first started it up newly built I had ALOT of heat issues, I must of had air pockets cause after I got it out on the highway it calmed down but still ran around 200, I had a 16" electric fan took so I took that off and went to the flex fan and spacer, I am not using a shroud either.
 
moper said:
Are the fans turning in the right direction? I agree on the bleeding the air out too. Also - years ago I had a 383 Dart I sold saying it had a cooling problem I couldn't find and was frustrated with. I had changed the cam and while the radiator was out a mouse had goneint the radiator and his corpse got stuck in the lower hose - at least that's what I was told had hapened.
Click to expand...

fans are mounted on backside of radiator (between radiator and block) pulling air towards block)
 
does anyone have dimensions for a MP viscous fan and clutch setup -
my distance from snout to radiator is just about 3" - i recall reading somewhere there was a shorter version clutch mechanism ??
 
Holy cow! 900CFM....that sucks!...or doesn't depending on how you look at it, lol. Poor flow, coupled with a shroud that basically blocks all other air flow will surely heat that thing up.

I would suggest a Chevy HHR fan. You can get them new for about 50 bucks (I got mine through Rockauto.com) and they pull somewhere in the neighborhood of 3000+ CFM. This is the fan I have on my car, and it works great...and it fits a 22" radiator perfectly.

After burping your cooling system, that would be my next move.
 
I run a Champion 3 core 26" radiator with dual 10" fans and shroud. On a hot day I run 200 to 210 degrees when warmed up. On a cool day it runs around 180 degrees. I am not totally enamored with the cooling. I had a 2 core standard radiator with standard fan and shroud that ran only a little hotter. I need to figure something out as well.
 
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