Indy RHS head failure

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B3RE said:
I'm sorry to see the carnage and all that money and effort lost. I can guarantee that you had valvetrain issues that caused the failure. The locks are simply located by the tang. It is not for holding the assembly together. The colleting effect of the lock angle does that, which btw, is better with a seven degree than it is with a ten degree. The tangs shearing off is from severe valve float.

When you check the sweep, I bet you will find over .100" lateral movement across the tip of the valve. That is only about 300% more than what it should be. Pretty typical of just bolting on a set of roller rockers without correcting the geometry.

If you don't want to take my word for it, call PRW and talk to Shawn. Tell him you had valvetrain issues with a Mopar roller rocker, and see what he tells you.

I feel bad for you, but unfortunately I see it all the time. There is more bad Mopar valvetrain information out there than you can shake the proverbial stick at, and it results in this kind of damage. It frustrates me to no end.
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Quoted for the truth.
 
B3RE said:
The tangs shearing off is from severe valve float.

When you check the sweep, I bet you will find over .100" lateral movement across the tip of the valve. That is only about 300% more than what it should be. Pretty typical of just bolting on a set of roller rockers without correcting the geometry.
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Do the valve float and lateral movement have anything to do with each other? Not challenging; I just can't see the lateral movement causing valve float. We still don't know lift, spring rates/pressures, and the other parts of the system or max RPM's seen; that would be helpful in judging valve float.
 
nm9stheham said:
Do the valve float and lateral movement have anything to do with each other? Not challenging; I just can't see the lateral movement causing valve float. We still don't know lift, spring rates/pressures, and the other parts of the system or max RPM's seen; that would be helpful in judging valve float.
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Yes, it absolutely does! There are accelerations and decelerations incurred when rotational motion is converted to linear motion (think crankshaft to rod/piston). When using a roller rocker, the fulcrum (pivot) point of the rocker is too low, and causes the valve to come off the seat slowly, and accelerate when it gets to higher lifts (wide sweep). Then, when the lifter comes over the nose of the cam, everything starts to back up, but the valve is now at, or near, its highest velocity going the opposite direction. Since it had no time to decelerate, the spring loses control and the valve floats. When the spring does finally bring the valve back, it slams into the rocker and sends a shock wave through the whole valvetrain. It doesn't take long for things to start breaking. Oh, for what it's worth, perfectly centering the sweep on the tip of the valve does nothing but make you feel good if the fulcrum point is not corrected. You can have the sweep perfectly centered, and still have the effective geometry off by well over .250". I've seen as much as .345" and I'm sure there has been worse.

Obviously, spring pressures and rpm play a role, but all I need to hear is "it has roller rockers" and no corrections have been made, and I already know the geometry is not good. That may sound presumptuous, but when the causes and effects of valvetrain instability are known, it's pretty easy to spot a problem.

I have some tech articles on the web that explain a lot about geometry, and there is still more to do. You can find them on the website in my signature. There's nothing like free info, especially when it's correct info.
 
Those beehives springs look to have the correct retainer, are the locks 7 or 10 degree? Do they match the retainer? What brand valve retainer and locks?
 
The sites hard on non sponsor business's posting links but your input in greatly appreciated . I have the info you sent me in July but the car just got home from Moparfest on the train last week so I'll be getting you the data for my kit soon . I would strongly advise anybody that does any of their own wrenching read his tech articles , don't look at it as added power but added peace of mind .

PS Can't wait for the next series of info ......
 
There are stamped steel valve locks and machined, hardened valve locks. But even if those are the weaker stamped steel, there were other things at work here, as other have pointed out.

Has anyone suggested checking the rest for coil bind at max lift? That would try to punch the valve down through the retainer with the "bead' in the lock being the weak point.

Curious about spring pressures because not quite enough is worse than a little too much. But it would need to be way too little to cause enough float to screw things up that quick. It would also show up on the rest of the valves and locks.

I'm leaning towards coil bind with a bad batch of locks a distant second.
 
B3RE said:
I guess someone didn't like my signature and edited it.
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I didnt edit the sig (I didnt even know that was a rule), I was just waiting on the flaming.

However I did read some of your article, and plan on reading the whole thing multiple times. It does seem to be some good stuff to know, thats for sure.


Sorry for the offensive nature, wasnt intended to get your sig KO'ed.
 
cannucky said:
The sites hard on non sponsor business's posting links but your input in greatly appreciated . I have the info you sent me in July but the car just got home from Moparfest on the train last week so I'll be getting you the data for my kit soon . I would strongly advise anybody that does any of their own wrenching read his tech articles , don't look at it as added power but added peace of mind .

PS Can't wait for the next series of info ......
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Thanks for the plug on the tech articles, but nobody knows where to go. I can't post the link, but you can.O:) Seriously, if the OP knew about this when his engine was built, I doubt this would have occurred. A lot of waste for nothing.

PS. I should be writing a new article right now.:) I'll try to get one done in the near future.
 
I think if your close to 600 lift those heads need to be spot on. I think in stock form they are good for around 525 lift, with the beehive springs about 600.
 
Dragonbat13 said:
I didnt edit the sig (I didnt even know that was a rule), I was just waiting on the flaming.

However I did read some of your article, and plan on reading the whole thing multiple times. It does seem to be some good stuff to know, thats for sure.


Sorry for the offensive nature, wasnt intended to get your sig KO'ed.
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Nah, I didn't think it was you. I just thought you were wondering what happened to the web address. Shows how much I know the smilies. Lol
 
This is what the valve geometry looks like on my RHS heads. Sorta hefty springs, like 350 lbs + (.251/.259 @ .050" solid cam) 1.6 rockers.

IMG_0036_zpsuigqwopj.jpg
 
that really sucks but , at least you were not hurt or any 1 else titanic sank
the space shuttle blew up i slipped on a wet floor and blew 4 discs ,broke 1 vertabra
ans tore my sacroiliac 1 in a billion chance dont ever think anything cant happen
in a way to look at it you got lucky it was just a motor and not family health
still dont beat yourself up over something you could not controll .sorry to hear or see just glad in the relm of life it was a want not a need that got taken . it can be fixed
or forgotten , now had some 1 hit you when it went kipow and laying in the hospital or burying a child or family member , then itworth asking why. in some better way to look at it to lesson your anger . Good health to you!! dont ask why me , just say
thanks for keeping others out of harm. Sorry Jon
 
I didn't see anything that look destroyed. A sleeve is cheaper than doing another block. And those heads can be repaired inexpensively.

Looks like valve float to me as well.

Also, Mike is correct 7* locks are stronger than 10*. but in this case either one should not have failed.
 
oh by the way i am running RHS heads also 2 years old , i will be checking mine tommoro
but i bought the valve train as a complete kit,hoping not to see that problem myself
but like i said a billion parts stamped out or produced even 1/2 of 1 percent of bad parts will cause a lot of headaches ,and i dont need any more either . 16 keepers on even only 2 million engines 1 out of 100,000 goes bad thats alot of bad engine problems .
 
That sucks! I feel your pain! :violent2:

Are my eyes deceiving me or are the keeper's locking ridge that engages the valve-stem groove completely missing? Looks like it completely sheared off?

What would cause that? Failure of the keeper itself due to inadequate heat-treating or some other metallurgical issue? Or was it something else that stressed the keeper to the point of failure like valve-spring coil bind or something?
 
one keeper lower than the other looks like and results in bad news-made in china junk. did u rev it to the moon and float valves? was there enough valve spring load for you?
 
Sorry for the late reply, it's been busy at work and with family. I ordered the cam when I ordered the heads told the shop just to send me what he thought was best based off all the info I gave him. Here's a picture of the cam card.
 

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Marcohotrod said:
one keeper lower than the other looks like and results in bad news-made in china junk. did u rev it to the moon and float valves? was there enough valve spring load for you?
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Rzero8 your eyes are not deceiving you. The locks have absolutely no groove to them now. I tried to get a good picture to show that. I have a MSD6AL in the car with a 6500 chip in it. I don't feel like I was abusive to it revving it too high.

In the picture with the keeper sitting lower that the other is on the same intake valve on #6 cyl that failed on the #5 cylinder. I noticed it and it appears that the same valve on the opposite head looks like it was ready to go. Take a look at the valve stem length also in this picture. The previous picture of the keepers not lined up is the one on the Lt that has less valve stem vs the not on the right. It looked to me that valve was wanting to pull out of the keeper too. I haven't pulled it apart yet till I hear back from the shop I dealt with.
 
B3RE, I read your articles. Great stuff! A couple of drawings would make it a whole lot easier to penetrate, though. Especially for us foreigners. :D
 
yellow rose said:
I didn't see anything that look destroyed. A sleeve is cheaper than doing another block. And those heads can be repaired inexpensively.

Looks like valve float to me as well.

Also, Mike is correct 7* locks are stronger than 10*. but in this case either one should not have failed.
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Easy now, I didn't say they were stronger, I said they had more colleting effect on the valve stem. They won't unlock as quickly as a 10 degree lock will. They can pull through the retainer with high spring loads and valve float, but strength wise, the 10 degree has a heavier wall, which makes it stronger, all else being the same.
 
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