New Build Trickflow 190 and quench

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Ivoryk3ys78

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Good Afternoon. This winter we plan on doing a stroker with one of the early 70s 360 blocks that we have.

I have already ordered the Powerport 190 heads and I am going to get the single plane intake when it arrives.

So this is the build I have planned
408
Howard Solid Flat Tappet 712712-08
599 615 Gross .018/.018 lash 1.5
254/260 @.050
282/288 ADv Intake Close 65 (I think at .020)
108 Center

PowerPort 190 heads and intake

Now when I purchase a rotating assembly unless I am thinking wrong or overlooking something because these heads are 60cc the only way to create a quench without having more then 12:1 compression is by having the heads opened up is that correct?

The reading I have been doign it looks like I can get away with around 195 cranking pressure with an aluminum head but I don't know if that can be done without a quench. So Far I have looked at ordered a flat top piston scat kit and running a thicker gasket.

A .080 4.06 gasket is giving a static compression of 11.5 and a dynamic of 9:1. This is at sea level which is pretty much right were I am.

A .080 4.18 gasket puts the static at 11.2.

So I guess I am asking what are some thougsh on quench and compression balance and what some options might be.

Thanks a lot.
 
Sorry yea good question. It is going to be a hot street engine. It will be run on non ethenol 92.
 
B3422w5 said:
Icon makes a dish piston that should come out around 10.5 compression with a 60cc head.
Click to expand...

I am thinking 11.2 should work out fine with a cam that healthy. The 11.5 may be pushing it some..

My father is running 11.2 on a 383 solid roller cam of right at that duration with ported 915s but he is also running like .035 quench and he does not detonate.


So with heads that are 60cc you would have to open them up or be running a cam with a really late close to be able to run a decent quench of around.040 on 92 octane is that right?
 
I am running the next cam up from Howards 260/264 on my stock stroke 360. Its roughly 10.3 compression and runs fine on pump premium but i most always run good stuff in it.
Stock 340 was 10.5 with iron head and ran fine on pump gas
Frankly i wouldnt quibble. 1/2 point in compression is maybe 1.5 percent more power. 10 horse maybe?. 10.5-7 compression would be a nice street goal
That cam sounds fine, smaller in a 4 inch motor than i would run on a healthy car, but not by much. I drive mine everywhere and race it a bunch. 4 inch stroke eats duration. Just depends how much you want to squeeze out more power
 
B3422w5 said:
I am running the next cam up from Howards 260/264 on my stock stroke 360. Its roughly 10.3 compression and runs fine on pump premium but i most always run good stuff in it.
Stock 340 was 10.5 with iron head and ran fine on pump gas
Frankly i wouldnt quibble. 1/2 point in compression is maybe 1.5 percent more power. 10 horse maybe?. 10.5-7 compression would be a nice street goal
That cam sounds fine, smaller in a 4 inch motor than i would run on a healthy car, but not by much. I drive mine everywhere and race it a bunch. 4 inch stroke eats duration. Just depends how much you want to squeeze out more power
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot. That is very helpful. Yea I was thinking a size up but using desktopdyno to try to get an estimate using the headflow date and trying to enter everything as accurate as I cam then 254 seems to work out real well with the powerband peaking a little before 6500 and the peak torque looking like its in a great area for the 3500 stall converter.

Yea that is true on the power and compression..
 
Ivoryk3ys78 said:
Thanks a lot. That is very helpful. Yea I was thinking a size up but using desktopdyno to try to get an estimate using the headflow date and trying to enter everything as accurate as I cam then 254 seems to work out real well with the powerband peaking a little before 6500 and the peak torque looking like its in a great area for the 3500 stall converter.

Yea that is true on the power and compression..
Click to expand...
Looking at Hughes 260/[email protected] solid. Since I plan on running the single plane that is coming out for those heads it might be worth going a bit bigger on the cam then the 254/[email protected].

It will be in a 72 Duster with 4.30 and 27" tire with a 3500 Hughes 10inch.
 
I'm running a combination like that (11.3 :1) and still have to throw just a little 110 Sunoco in the mixx just to bring the octane up a little bit more than the 92 non ethanol so the motor will turn off. It runs fine starts and all that but it will run on if it doesn't have a little more octane when I go to shut it off....
 
j par said:
I'm running a combination like that (11.3 :1) and still have to throw just a little 110 Sunoco in the mixx just to bring the octane up a little bit more than the 92 non ethanol so the motor will turn off. It runs fine starts and all that but it will run on if it doesn't have a little more octane when I go to shut it off....
Click to expand...

That's really interesting. I would not of thought of that happening.

What are you running for mechanical total? I was also thinking that a newer designed closed chamber head like this might not need quite as much total and might be able to get away with 34 or 32 to get peak power.
 
Ivoryk3ys78 said:
Looking at Hughes 260/[email protected] solid. Since I plan on running the single plane that is coming out for those heads it might be worth going a bit bigger on the cam then the 254/[email protected].

It will be in a 72 Duster with 4.30 and 27" tire with a 3500 Hughes 10inch.
Click to expand...

Look at the Howards 260/264. It makes good power. My stock shortblock, stock stroke 360 has dipped into the 11.20’s a few times with very mildly worked eddies and an airgap. Car weighs almost 3300 and doesn't have a hood-scoop.
I bet that motor you have will make peak power at less than you are saying, good bit less. Probably not much over 6k
 
B3422w5 said:
Look at the Howards 260/264. It makes good power. My stock shortblock, stock stroke 360 has dipped into the 11.20’s a few times with very mildly worked eddies and an airgap. Car weighs almost 3300 and doesn't have a hood-scoop.
I bet that motor you have will make peak power at less than you are saying, good bit less. Probably not much over 6k
Click to expand...

I can't find that howards cam. The solids that I see with 260@050 take a large drop in lift.

| Howards Cams
 
Ivoryk3ys78 said:
That's really interesting. I would not of thought of that happening.

What are you running for mechanical total? I was also thinking that a newer designed closed chamber head like this might not need quite as much total and might be able to get away with 34 or 32 to get peak power.
Click to expand...
I actually have open chamber iron heads.
With my old cam I was running about 36 degrees of timing, but that's when I had a pretty large lift and duration as you have planned. I lowered that down for a little Street drivability..
I was unaware of any cranking pressure limits for aluminum heads?
 
Well not cranking pressure limits. I did not detail that out very well. I have read on Hughes site(and have seen basically the same thing somewhere else) that for iron heads on pump premium shoot for a cranking pressure max of around 165 and on aluminum heads shoot for a max of around 295.



j par said:
I actually have open chamber iron heads.
With my old cam I was running about 36 degrees of timing, but that's when I had a pretty large lift and duration as you have planned. I lowered that down for a little Street drivability..
I was unaware of any cranking pressure limits for aluminum heads?
Click to expand...
 
B3422w5 said:
Its 260/264 565/565 with 1.5’s.... its on a 106, put in at 102
Its about the neatest sounding stick i have ever run.... not that that matters.... lol
But i love the power
Click to expand...
I don't know.. I would say it matters haha. These cars are not driven often. They should be fire breathing monsters that have no resemblance to a normal car.
 
Ivoryk3ys78 said:
Well not cranking pressure limits. I did not detail that out very well. I have read on Hughes site(and have seen basically the same thing somewhere else) that for iron heads on pump premium shoot for a cranking pressure max of around 165 and on aluminum heads shoot for a max of around 295.
Click to expand...
I think it would be worth your time to check those numbers (for iron vs aluminum) to make sure it's a good Golden Rule....
 
^^^^I should also say what you're saying I haven't heard before so that doesn't mean that a million other people haven't.
 
Yea I will be careful with it. That is kinda what started my question on quench. I certainly have read about a nice quench helping stop the gases in front of the flame from igniting.

This engine will not have quench. There is a lot of gray area for sure. I did see an article online on hotrod that use two identical dart heads that flowed exactly the same and they found no difference on the dyno. They said there is a common held belief that iron because of its greater heat retention will make a greater hp at a given compression. They didn't see that. They said there was no detonation on either head and so the theory on aluminum heads being able to run higher compression wa not tested.
 
Does anyone make a piston with a half dish ?
Or You could get custom slugs.
 
Ivoryk3ys78 said:
I am thinking 11.2 should work out fine with a cam that healthy. The 11.5 may be pushing it some..

My father is running 11.2 on a 383 solid roller cam of right at that duration with ported 915s but he is also running like .035 quench and he does not detonate.


So with heads that are 60cc you would have to open them up or be running a cam with a really late close to be able to run a decent quench of around.040 on 92 octane is that right?
Click to expand...

I don't get this , how can opening a head up create quench ?? U need a flat spot on the heads and a flat corresponding part of the piston to create quench. Best is usually about .035-.040 .
 
Can't the cc's in a head be upped by opening it up some? I have never done head work but my understanding was you could do that.

I wouldn't have it done on these heads I just meant to get a quench at a lower compression my understanding is that that is the only option. That was really the origin of my question.



famous bob said:
I don't get this , how can opening a head up create quench ?? U need a flat spot on the heads and a flat corresponding part of the piston to create quench. Best is usually about .035-.040 .
Click to expand...
 
If you want that static CR with a 4" stroke and 60 cc chambers, then do this:
  • Use the ICON IC9978 piston from their FHR forged line. 13 cc dish + eyebrows, and CH of 1.450"
  • Cut deck to get to that SCR and a decent quench gap with those 60 cc chambers with no chamber cutting
    • Cut block deck by approx .022" to get the piston tops .005" below deck. SCR will then be 11.1 with a Felpro 1008 head gasket and quench gap of .044"
    • Or, cut deck by approx .027" to get piston tops at zero deck. SCR will be then 11.2 with the Felpro 1008 head gasket and .039" quench gap
    • Your quench/squish action will be from the ring of piston top material around the edge of the piston top where it runs under the flat areas of the head chambers on 2 sides See piston top illustration here: 1 Set IC99778.030/1 Set 4000BD8.035
FWIW: Dynamic CR will be around 9.0 with those cam specs at 104 ICL. Don't know your exact elevation but at 500' cranking compression computes out to 185 psi + or -; the fast ramps on that particular cam (optimized for the .904 lifters) would make me thing it will be more on the + side.

Ought to be exciting! LOL
 
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