SBM Roller Lifter Choice

-
512Stroker

512Stroker

We are all here because we are not all there.
Joined
May 30, 2016
Messages
3,495
Reaction score
2,924
Location
Freedom, MO
After reading and researching issues with hydraulic roller lifters on this and another Mopar forum I have come to the conclusion to **** can the cheap *** Comp Cam Retrofit Hydraulic Roller lifters that had so lovingly installed in my stock block 340. Like I have said before I am done with hydraulic lifters, so my intent is to replace them with a quality solid roller and yes that means that I will be running a solid roller on a hydraulic grind.
My problem is the vast amount of roller lifters available, which one do I get?
Please someone help me find a solid roller lifter with the following features.
- Must be suitable for use in a stock 1969 LA 340 block, no mods have been made to the block including no mods to the oiling system, oil pressure currently 30 psi hot idle, 65 psi cruz speed
- .810 roller or larger
- Retrofit type configuration NO grinding of the block required to fit
- Lowered oil groove for use in standard lifter bore that may have been recessed at the top of the bore by the factory
- Must be able to be removed completely from the engine without removing the cylinder heads
This is a performance street application.
The engine is currently assembled, running and in the car.
I love the cam I hate the excessively loud clattering hydraulic roller lifters, it's driving me nuts every time I start the engine.
Engine dyno'ed at 442 corrected HP equipped with ported iron X heads with (CC) Comp Cam roller rocker arm assemblies.
CC 8920-16 Retrofit Hydraulic Roller lifters
CC 20-811-9 Camshaft
CC 987-17 Valve Springs - edit 987-16
I know I will need different length push rods
Anyone willing to recommend a quality producer of such a solid roller lifter.
Your help is greatly appreciated, I am pulling my hair out and their not much left.
Thanks in advance
 
Last edited:
so that's Extreme Energy 1,800-5,800
XR274HR-10 camshaft, Hydraulic Roller Tappet, Advertised Duration 274/282,
Duration at 050 inch Lift:224 int./230 exh. Lift .538/.534, 110 LCA
you say 987-16 FIXED
comp recommends
987-16 valve spring kit and 622-16 retainers with 1.6 rockers or 1.5 rockers
Valve Springs, Dual, 1.430 in. Outside Diameter, 344 lbs./in. Rate,
1.150 in. Coil Bind Height,
what height are you set up at? what retainer?
what are you running?
what's the difference???
are you running roller tip rockers? what rockers? ratio?
if so do you have a B3racingindustries kit - have you read all 4 tech articles on his website?
do you know the grind number of the cam (from the lobe list catalog?)
what oil are you running?

you have the Johnson tappet retrofit kit
 
Last edited:
I'd suck up the money and buy the Crane Pro Series Lifters. They drop in, are a solid body, will go in with the heads on if you hold your tongue right and they will live.

If you are using them on a hydraulic roller lobe, lash the cam at .0015-.0020 and you'll love it.


Edit: Crane 69554-16 is what you want. They now call it the Ultra Pro. I've used those with 340 on the seat and shifted at 8800 with them. A little under 800 bucks at Jegs. Hard to beat that. Crower also has a quality lifter for the Chrysler. I forget the Crower guy who is a member here. You may want to contact him and may get a discount.

Either or will be about the best you can get for what you want.
 
I don't have a lifter recommendation, but I have looked a bit into the problems with these lifters. I'm using the comp retro-rollers in my own engine and don't think the noise is excessive at all but that doesn't mean you're experiencing the same thing. I'm running a custom ground cam with specs similar to the 20-811-9 grind with .536/.544 lift with 1.6 rockers.

I'm not saying this is your problem, but at lower rpm this may cause enough bleed off to cause problems with the lifter pumping up properly-
What I've found is the mopar block's oil gallies are drilled from the four corners (see pic for detail) and rarely meet in the middle. In some cases, with high lobe-lift cams, this pushes a roller lifter far enough into the bore that is offset enough that oil is bleeding off from the gallies from under the wheel. There's only so much lifter body that can cover the wheel. I haven't checked any other lifters, but comp's lifter manufacturer for that lifter uses similar body styles for a range of lifters, changing the link-bar for it's different applications. There's very few actual lifter manufactures so I'd check their body style and take that into consideration when choosing your next lifter.

If you have a chance whenever you can get your engine apart, you should look through the oil gallies and see how off they are. It may get super picky with roller lifter choices.

Also, what oil are you running?

This is the mismatch of the oil gallies.
IMG_20190522_131838 (1).jpg

This picture I pulled the lifter up to exacerbate the issue. You can clearly see the bottom of the lifter. Flat tappet lifters would have no problems but add a roller and it can become an issue.
IMG_20190522_095024 (1).jpg

This is for a one of the worse off blocks I looked at, but the arrows are where the gallies were drilled from and you can see how it affects the lifter.

diagr.JPG


Hope this sheds some light, if this is a problem solids would help as it wouldn't bleed off enough to disrupt engine oiling, just enough maybe where it mattered to affect the hydraulics. And again, this is what I might think is a good explanation, as I have no problem with these lifters on a similar setup.
 
Last edited:
Wyrmrider said:
so that's
XR274HR-10 camshaft, Hydraulic Roller Tappet, Advertised Duration 274/282,
Duration at 050 inch Lift:224 int./230 exh. Lift .538/.534, 110 LCA
you say 987-17
comp recommends
987-16 valve spring kit and 622-16 retainers with 1.6 rockers or 1.5 rockers
Valve Springs, Dual, 1.430 in. Outside Diameter, 344 lbs./in. Rate,
1.150 in. Coil Bind Height,
what height are you set up at? what retainer?
what are you running?
what's the difference???
are you running roller tip rockers? what rockers? ratio?
if so do you have a B3racingindustries kit - have you read all 4 tech articles on his website?
do you know the grind number of the cam (from the lobe list catalog?)
what oil are you running?

you have the Johnson tappet retrofit kit
Click to expand...
Nice
Cam and spring info you provided appears to be correct
I corrected the valve spring P/N to 987-16
Rocker arms are Comp Cam 1.5 ratio roller tip P/N? , they came with the heads in a parts swap
Do not have retainer info and installed height, part of a parts swap, heads had just been freshened up by a reputable engine builder. I really dont have a problem with the build other than the noisy hyd rollers that I supplied.
The engine runs very well, pulls like a freight train and has good driveablity.
The only grind number I have is off the cam card CRS XR274HR-10
Cam Serial number WY5940-16
Remember I am not an engine builder, I just like old cars.
Oil - Valvoline 10W-30
Have not read the B3 articles, I will put them on the list
Not aware the the Johnson retrofit kit, first I have heard of it, you can bet I will look it up.
 
Charlesvolare said:
I don't have a lifter recommendation, but I have looked a bit into the problems with these lifters. I'm using the comp retro-rollers in my own engine and don't think the noise is excessive at all but that doesn't mean you're experiencing the same thing. I'm running a custom ground cam with specs similar to the 20-811-9 grind with .536/.544 lift with 1.6 rockers.

I'm not saying this is your problem, but at rpm this may cause enough bleed off to cause problems with the lifter pumping up properly-
What I've found is the mopar block's oil gallies are drilled from the four corners (see pic for detail) and rarely meet in the middle. In some cases, with high lobe-lift cams, this pushes a roller lifter far enough into the bore that is offset enough that oil is bleeding off from the gallies from under the wheel. There's only so much lifter body that can cover the wheel. I haven't checked any other lifters, but comp's lifter manufacturer for that lifter uses similar body styles for a range of lifters, changing the link-bar for it's different applications. There's very few actual lifter manufactures so I'd check their body style and take that into consideration when choosing your next lifter.

If you have a chance whenever you can get your engine apart, you should look through the oil gallies and see how off they are. It may get super picky with roller lifter choices.

Also, what oil are you running?

This is the mismatch of the oil gallies.
View attachment 1715416204
This picture I pulled the lifter up to exacerbate the issue. You can clearly see the bottom of the lifter. Flat tappet lifters would have no problems but add a roller and it can become an issue.
View attachment 1715416205
This is for a one of the worse off blocks I looked at, but the arrows are where the gallies were drilled from and you can see how it affects the lifter.

View attachment 1715416215

Hope this sheds some light, if this is a problem solids would help as it wouldn't bleed off enough to disrupt engine oiling, just enough maybe where it mattered to affect the hydraulics. And again, this is what I might think is a good explanation, as I have no problem with these lifters on a similar setup.
Click to expand...

Whenever you the your Comp lifters out, it'd be useful to know if you have the "flat" lifter or the "smiley face" lifter, referring to the body over the wheel. This is a "flat" and a "smiley face" dips down like a smiley face. It's very apparent which is which.
IMG_20191030_170549.jpg
 
Charlesvolare said:
I don't have a lifter recommendation, but I have looked a bit into the problems with these lifters. I'm using the comp retro-rollers in my own engine and don't think the noise is excessive at all but that doesn't mean you're experiencing the same thing. I'm running a custom ground cam with specs similar to the 20-811-9 grind with .536/.544 lift with 1.6 rockers.

I'm not saying this is your problem, but at lower rpm this may cause enough bleed off to cause problems with the lifter pumping up properly-
What I've found is the mopar block's oil gallies are drilled from the four corners (see pic for detail) and rarely meet in the middle. In some cases, with high lobe-lift cams, this pushes a roller lifter far enough into the bore that is offset enough that oil is bleeding off from the gallies from under the wheel. There's only so much lifter body that can cover the wheel. I haven't checked any other lifters, but comp's lifter manufacturer for that lifter uses similar body styles for a range of lifters, changing the link-bar for it's different applications. There's very few actual lifter manufactures so I'd check their body style and take that into consideration when choosing your next lifter.

If you have a chance whenever you can get your engine apart, you should look through the oil gallies and see how off they are. It may get super picky with roller lifter choices.

Also, what oil are you running?

This is the mismatch of the oil gallies.
View attachment 1715416204
This picture I pulled the lifter up to exacerbate the issue. You can clearly see the bottom of the lifter. Flat tappet lifters would have no problems but add a roller and it can become an issue.
View attachment 1715416205
This is for a one of the worse off blocks I looked at, but the arrows are where the gallies were drilled from and you can see how it affects the lifter.

View attachment 1715416215

Hope this sheds some light, if this is a problem solids would help as it wouldn't bleed off enough to disrupt engine oiling, just enough maybe where it mattered to affect the hydraulics. And again, this is what I might think is a good explanation, as I have no problem with these lifters on a similar setup.
Click to expand...
Valvoline 10W-30
Hot oil pressure is good
My lifters are not that noisy when the engine is running
My problem is on start up, hot or cold they clatter - bad - ever since the engine was new, now has 3500 miles on it - no change
I have tried every pre load setting possible - I am am done with it
 
Charlesvolare said:
Whenever you the your Comp lifters out, it'd be useful to know if you have the "flat" lifter or the "smiley face" lifter, referring to the body over the wheel. This is a "flat" and a "smiley face" dips down like a smiley face. It's very apparent which is which.
View attachment 1715416220
Click to expand...
If I ever get the dam things out I will check it out.
Any way possible to remove them without taking the heads off?
 
crower rep is dart19666 drop him a note

I give up on comp
they say it is an "exteme energy "series but I go to Extreme Energy in their lobe list catalog and there is no lobe that duration listed
I'm not going to go through all their lists trying to do a match

do check your installed height
 
Last edited:
Can I just have some pics of the red white an blue 'Cuda.

You know, for keepsies?
 
512Stroker said:
If I ever get the dam things out I will check it out.
Any way possible to remove them without taking the heads off?
Click to expand...

I've had my lifters in and out with the heads on, but I'm running magnum heads so I'm not sure if it'd be too much different.

One of the blocks I looked at was a 340 spintron block that had solid rollers in it already from the last time they were running small block Mopar tests (probably back when dinosaurs were still roaming around). I don't recall what lifters they were exactly, but I had to pull the heads to get them all out. If I had thought about it I would've checked with the hydraulics and thrown my magnum heads on to see if there was any difference in clearances but I didn't think to check.
 
Wyrmrider said:
crower rep is dart19666 drop him a note

I give up on comp
they say it is an "exteme energy "series but I go to Extreme Energy in their lobe list catalog and there is no lobe that duration listed
I'm not going to go through all their lists trying to do a match

do check your installed height
Click to expand...
I will drop them a email regarding the grind and see what they come up with
Thanks for the help
 
Wyrmrider said:
crower rep is dart19666 drop him a note

I give up on comp
they say it is an "exteme energy "series but I go to Extreme Energy in their lobe list catalog and there is no lobe that duration listed
I'm not going to go through all their lists trying to do a match

do check your installed height
Click to expand...
Wow I got a response from Comp
Lobe numbers
Intake - 3015
Exhaust - 3036
 
I think you may be looking for a unicorn. I’m in exactly the position you are in, accept I would be looking to upgrade to a roller the easiest/cheapest way possible. Which would be change cam/lifters/springs DONE! The unicorn comes in because some say “this” lifter works with no oiling mods, it probably did for them doesn’t mean it will for you. They went in with no grinding, they probably did for them, but it doesn’t mean they will for you. I have been thinking about this for a while and I think you will just have to prepare yourself that it may work out, but the odds are you may need to tube the galley or less probably, grind the valley to clear them. When I do it I will tube the galley as a precaution. The amount of chamfer is so random that until you put all YOUR parts together you won’t really know.
 
512Stroker said:
Wow I got a response from Comp
Lobe numbers
Intake - 3015
Exhaust - 3036
Click to expand...
THANKS I'll look up that grind in the online lobe list catalog
Found on the Extreme XFI intake page 23 and Exhaust p 24
Intake is 149@200 Intensity is MI 26.6 with 13.1 opening and 13.5 closing
Exhaust is 147@200 MI 27.3 13.4/13.9 intensity should be .006<.050>.006
so far so good
What's interesting is Comp does not use the BBC/ MOPAR size base circle
but uses a base circle smaller than SBC- what we used for stroker SBC's
Why?
one reason might to be to try and get a little more action off the seat/ less side pressure on the lifter
sort of a kludge inverse radius
but there are tradeoffs
smaller base circle requires different pushrods
maybe a different roller lifter
so check it out
no reason that a roller has to be the same base circle as a FT
we used a really small base circle on the 4 1/4 stroke chevy
however I usually like the cam core and base circle and the roller to be as large as possible - again tradeoffs
oil bands can be uncovered at both the bottom but more usually at the top of the lifter bore
this may be a "one size fits all" cost savings or be a great feature IDK

READ THE DESCRIPTION in the Comp Catalog
COMP Cams Lobe Catalog pg 23 and see if it matches MOPAR and/ or your build
 
Last edited:
Wyrmrider said:
THANKS I'll look up that grind in the online lobe list catalog
Found on the Extreme XFI intake page 23 and Exhaust p 24
Intake is 149@200 Intensity is MI 26.6 with 13.1 opening and 13.5 closing
Exhaust is 147@200 MI 27.3 13.4/13.9 intensity should be .006<.050>.006
so far so good
What's interesting is Comp does not use the BBC/ MOPAR size base circle
but uses a base circle smaller than SBC- what we used for stroker SBC's
Why?
one reason might to be to try and get a little more action off the seat/ less side pressure on the lifter
sort of a kludge inverse radius
but there are tradeoffs
smaller base circle requires different pushrods
maybe a different roller lifter
so check it out
no reason that a roller has to be the same base circle as a FT
we used a really small base circle on the 4 1/4 stroke chevy
however I usually like the cam core and base circle and the roller to be as large as possible - again tradeoffs
oil bands can be uncovered at both the bottom but more usually at the top of the lifter bore
this may be a "one size fits all" cost savings or be a great feature IDK

READ THE DESCRIPTION in the Comp Catalog
COMP Cams Lobe Catalog pg 23 and see if it matches MOPAR and/ or your build
Click to expand...
Great information
I appreciate your interpretation you have a lot more experience with this data than I do.
Is the any reason that you see that these hyd roller lobe grinds could not be use in combination with solid roller lifter? And or the valve springs that I currently have? - Comp 987-16
 
Id say solid roller lifter why mickey mouse around with a HR profile
I already said who I'd go to for cam advise and a cam
most likely a shelf cam is not going to do what you want
you need to get your calculator out and figure out how to figure out spring rates
know what your installed height or installed height choices are
then see what the cam vendor recommends
and thensee if your springs can be made to work
get all your wish list together and go around again
also what furry said
 
Charlesvolare said:
Whenever you the your Comp lifters out, it'd be useful to know if you have the "flat" lifter or the "smiley face" lifter, referring to the body over the wheel. This is a "flat" and a "smiley face" dips down like a smiley face. It's very apparent which is which.
View attachment 1715416220
Click to expand...
You're giving good info and great descriptive pics. Thanks.

The morrel solid lifters I use, cover the wheel and that's why they work without bleeding oil psi. But they are a .7 something wheel. I'm not complaining about that on the street because at this level and frequency...any negative byproduct stated by some will have about zero effect. I run .575 lift herbert cam, they call'em their "248 special grind" kind of a soft solid roller or aggressive hyd..lol.. depending if you're a half full or half empty person. Mine was ground [email protected] 108 la +4 degrees. 281 running duration iirr. I'm very happy with it and its QUIET, sewing machine quiet.
I run the k800's 220 closed and 490-500 open. Setup at 1.70 inst. height.
The 340 engines are the worst for oiling issues because of the crummy finish work
 
Have a look at the new comp cams sportsman series.
They should meet your criteria. You can get them with a bronze
Bushed axle or needle bearings. They have an .800 wheel, pressure fed edm directly to the axle, can be used if desired with pushrods oiling, staked axles that do not use "C" clips that can fail.
They also have the link bar moved inboard, so you will not have to grind the block. The proper way to use solid rollers in a small block is to tube or bush the block precisely for the reasons that Charles has posted. I personally do not understand this trend for everyone to use a hydraulic cam in a performance application.
 
Duane said:
Have a look at the new comp cams sportsman series.
They should meet your criteria. You can get them with a bronze
Bushed axle or needle bearings. They have an .800 wheel, pressure fed edm directly to the axle, can be used if desired with pushrods oiling, staked axles that do not use "C" clips that can fail.
They also have the link bar moved inboard, so you will not have to grind the block. The proper way to use solid rollers in a small block is to tube or bush the block precisely for the reasons that Charles has posted. I personally do not understand this trend for everyone to use a hydraulic cam in a performance application.
Click to expand...


How can they move the link bars inboard (inboard being toward the camshaft) on a 59 degree lifter bank angle???
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top