340 Static Compression Numbers and Test Procedure

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If you're getting detonation at 2500 rpm, 28-30* then quicker won't work.
Back to figuring out what's going on in there.

Locking out.
Sometimes its done.
Disadvantages are usually in getting good idle, and with a high revving engine, there can be timing 'lost' at the high rpms. (racing high, not street high)
 
If you're getting detonation at 2500 rpm, 28-30* then quicker won't work.
Back to figuring out what's going on in there.

Locking out.
Sometimes its done.
Disadvantages are usually in getting good idle, and with a high revving engine, there can be timing 'lost' at the high rpms. (racing high, not street high)
I hear ya. Will hold off trying to tune further until I get some decent gears in there (3.55 or 4.10). The detonation which is mostly if not completely under control right now IS being exacerbated by the load which is FU#$% up because of those gears and probably the converter. I was told it was a high stall torque converter but I think I was lied to and the guy skipped out of town. He is not somewhere in Minnesota ripping off people...
 
I hear ya. Will hold off trying to tune further until I get some decent gears in there (3.55 or 4.10). The detonation which is mostly if not completely under control right now IS being exacerbated by the load which is FU#$% up because of those gears and probably the converter. I was told it was a high stall torque converter but I think I was lied to and the guy skipped out of town. He is not somewhere in Minnesota ripping off people...
 
If you really want to know the compression ratio don't rule out using a whistler. Often times race track tech officials (circle tracks) will either have or have access to a whistler and for a small fee they might be coaxed into checking your compression ratio for you. I have one at the dyno and if used properly they are pretty accurate. Another benefit is that you only have to remove a sparkplug to use it.
 
If you really want to know the compression ratio don't rule out using a whistler. Often times race track tech officials (circle tracks) will either have or have access to a whistler and for a small fee they might be coaxed into checking your compression ratio for you. I have one at the dyno and if used properly they are pretty accurate. Another benefit is that you only have to remove a sparkplug to use it.
Thanks never heard of this device will have check it out. I live near a track so there might be some opportunities to use one.
 
Pick a couple of plugs and post some pictures. IMO, that plug is worthless. Any black shelled plug is near impossible to read. If you want to use Autolite's get a plug with a cad plated shell (or whatever coating Autolite uses...I'm STILL waiting on catalog from those bone heads).

That 65 crosses to a 12 Champion and if you CR is up at 11:1ish or even higher with the incorrect cam (still need to find out what's going on there) and is probably at least 1 range too hot.

If it's pinging on tip in I'd rather pull a couple of degrees of total out of it and get the curve in shape.

Also, I'm going to say that the springs available now leave plenty to be desired. I'm saying they don't always do what the instructions say they do. So you need to spend some time with a timing light and the tach and nail down exactly what the curve is, if you haven't already done that.
 
Ok, I forgot you posted your curve already. I also just went back up and looked at your Pistons. I'm not fond of making statements based on pictures and/or video but the tops of your Pistons look like they are getting hammered, if you can believe the pictures.

I'm guess the cam is way too far advanced or was never degreed in the first place and that's what's running your cranking compression through the roof. Or, they just picked a cam out of a catalog and flat missed. Or, they didn't have a clue as to what they were doing.

At any rate, you'll need to clean up their mess.
 
If you're getting detonation at 2500 rpm, 28-30* then quicker won't work.
Back to figuring out what's going on in there.

Locking out.
Sometimes its done.
Disadvantages are usually in getting good idle, and with a high revving engine, there can be timing 'lost' at the high rpms. (racing high, not street high)
Wouldn’t a higher timing point be BETTER for idle as opposed to a “disadvantage “?
 
Hot off the press I just measured the actual curve in the car. May need to increase the timing at around 2700 that dip does not look great. It also maybe the data is not that great right there.

View attachment 1715455261
That curve shows that the distributor is setup up really late.
All in should be no more 3000 rpm perhaps even less.
 
Ok, I forgot you posted your curve already. I also just went back up and looked at your Pistons. I'm not fond of making statements based on pictures and/or video but the tops of your Pistons look like they are getting hammered, if you can believe the pictures.

I'm guess the cam is way too far advanced or was never degreed in the first place and that's what's running your cranking compression through the roof. Or, they just picked a cam out of a catalog and flat missed. Or, they didn't have a clue as to what they were doing.

At any rate, you'll need to clean up their mess.
Can I really degree the engine without a cam card?
 
That curve shows that the distributor is setup up really late.
All in should be no more 3000 rpm perhaps even less.
For optimal performance I guess I am late but YR is right if my cam aint timed correctly tuning for performance is a wasted effort right?
 
Can I really degree the engine without a cam card?


You can see where it's at now and make a descison on what to do next.

I need to make a video on how to degree a cam. There are hundreds of them out there, but I don't do it that way. Once you know what max lift is, you can put the degree wheel on there and determine where you are. And go from there.

My best guess is if the cam isn't some small thing that's wrong for your combo, it is advanced too far.

When I can, I run cams straight up, regardless of the cam card suggestion, especially if I'm using a gear drive. With a chain I go in 2 ahead because the chain stretches.

I'm not a fan of the 4 degrees ahead thinking. Ultradyne used to use 6 ahead for many of his lobes. I wasn't a fan of that either.
 
You can see where it's at now and make a descison on what to do next.

I need to make a video on how to degree a cam. There are hundreds of them out there, but I don't do it that way. Once you know what max lift is, you can put the degree wheel on there and determine where you are. And go from there.

My best guess is if the cam isn't some small thing that's wrong for your combo, it is advanced too far.

When I can, I run cams straight up, regardless of the cam card suggestion, especially if I'm using a gear drive. With a chain I go in 2 ahead because the chain stretches.

I'm not a fan of the 4 degrees ahead thinking. Ultradyne used to use 6 ahead for many of his lobes. I wasn't a fan of that either.
Doesn’t it mater how the cam was cut and how far advanced it was cut for? I don’t under the thinking of why cams are made with different degrees of timing in the first place and when they are how they need to be “offset” or taken into consideration when degreing the set up on the motor. You should definitely do a video!
 
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Harold had a habit of adding lobe on the closing side to give more duration at higher valve lifts
he fretted over a couple of degrees extra say at 200 all on the close side
so he "advanced" the nose measured down .050 on each side that one degreeing the cam would do
worked for him
Jones also uses this "trick" he may have got it from Harold but he designs cams completly differently than Harold's
of course most trace back to Ed Winfield (IDK about Crane who came out of nowhere and really shook up the good old boy'sclub of camgrinders in so cal)

Another real possibility was that the advance was required to fit the grind on the core
one reason that Comp likes 110 degrees LCA
 
Harold had a habit of adding lobe on the closing side to give more duration at higher valve lifts
he fretted over a couple of degrees extra say at 200 all on the close side
so he "advanced" the nose measured down .050 on each side that one degreeing the cam would do
worked for him
Jones also uses this "trick" he may have got it from Harold but he designs cams completly differently than Harold's
of course most trace back to Ed Winfield (IDK about Crane who came out of nowhere and really shook up the good old boy'sclub of camgrinders in so cal)

Another real possibility was that the advance was required to fit the grind on the core
one reason that Comp likes 110 degrees LCA



Exactly. Sometimes I even use .100 down to make the math easy. As long as you are .050 or more down from either side of max lift you'll get it done.
 
Doesn’t it mater how the cam was cut and how far advanced it was cut for? I don’t under the thinking of why cams are made with different degrees of timing in the first place and when they are how they need to be “offset” or taken into consideration when degreing the set up on the motor. You should definitely do a video!


Because all the lobes are on one stick. That's where you get lobe seperation angle (displacement). That is the angle between max lift on the intake and exhaust lobes of the same cylinder. As you move the timing events around, you must change the LSA. You can have 5 cams all with 280 degrees of seat to seat timing and all 5 of them can have a different LSA, depending on when you open and close the valves. And all will have different chacteristics.

ICL, or intake centerline is where max lift occurs relative to piston movement. If you have the same 280 cam and let's say it's ground on the Comp cams de facto 110 LSA (which can't be changed after the cam is ground) and Comp says put it in on a 106 ICL, that means you are timing the cam so that when the piston is 106 degrees ATDC the valve will be at max lift. If you install it at a 110 ICL, it is now what I call straight up and 4 degrees retarded from where Comp called for. That means the intake valve now opens 4 degrees LATER and it also closes 4 degrees LATER. Let's say you go hog wild and put the cam in on a 114 degree ICL. That means you are another 4 degrees retarded, and 8 degrees retarded from the cam card.

And again, the valve events are now occurring 8 degrees later than what the cam card called out. Retarding the cam delays the opening and closing of the intake valve. This usually reduces bottom end
torque for higher RPM power.

In your case, I'm guessing you either have the wrong cam, or it is significantly advanced. Just like retarding the cam, advancing the cam changes the valve events.

Let's say you go in 4 degrees ahead of the cam card and use a 102 degree ICL. You have now opened the intake valve 4 degrees SOONER. And you close the intake valve SOONER. This builds low RPM cylinder pressure. Which in you case is a bad thing.

Advancing the cam will always reduce intake piston to valve clearance and increase the exhaust valve clearance. This is because you are moving the valve events ahead (advancing them) so you will have more intake valve opening at and around TDC.

If you retard the cam, you will gain P/V clearance on the intake and lose it on the exhaust. This is because you are delaying the intake valve opening, and you'll have less intake valve opening at and around TDC.

You can also figure out what happens on the exhaust side by advancing and retarding cam timing.

BTW, it should be pointed out that cams ground with the de facto Comp call out of 4 degrees advance is mostly marketing hype. They did that because you can get lucky and maybe not need an offset key or bushing to get the cam timed. If you have a timing set with multiple key way options, this ground in advance is totally unnecessary. I guess the best scenario is you don't have a multiple key way option and you just "line up the dots" (I can't say how much I detest this, as degreeing a cam is very simple...I couldn't pass HS shop class if I couldn't do it on 3 different engines) then the 4 degrees advance ground into the cam would get the cam where the cam card called out.

It's all pretty simple stuff really. But it is important. When I look in a catalog and all the cams are ground on the same LSA I know that is a huge compromise.

The real reason why Comp chose the 110 LSA as the de facto LSA for most of their cams is simple economics. When a cam core is cast, the lobes are already there, in rough form. Getting a core for let's say a 105 LSA is much more difficult to find. Same goes for a 114 LSA. You can only move the lobes a few degrees either way or you run out of lobe to grind on.

If you use a 110 LSA on most everything, virtually every core you grab out of the bin will easily take a 110 LSA where a 105 or 114 may not fit on there.

Hope this makes sense.
 
Because all the lobes are on one stick. That's where you get lobe seperation angle (displacement). That is the angle between max lift on the intake and exhaust lobes of the same cylinder. As you move the timing events around, you must change the LSA. You can have 5 cams all with 280 degrees of seat to seat timing and all 5 of them can have a different LSA, depending on when you open and close the valves. And all will have different chacteristics.

ICL, or intake centerline is where max lift occurs relative to piston movement. If you have the same 280 cam and let's say it's ground on the Comp cams de facto 110 LSA (which can't be changed after the cam is ground) and Comp says put it in on a 106 ICL, that means you are timing the cam so that when the piston is 106 degrees ATDC the valve will be at max lift. If you install it at a 110 ICL, it is now what I call straight up and 4 degrees retarded from where Comp called for. That means the intake valve now opens 4 degrees LATER and it also closes 4 degrees LATER. Let's say you go hog wild and put the cam in on a 114 degree ICL. That means you are another 4 degrees retarded, and 8 degrees retarded from the cam card.

And again, the valve events are now occurring 8 degrees later than what the cam card called out. Retarding the cam delays the opening and closing of the intake valve. This usually reduces bottom end
torque for higher RPM power.

In your case, I'm guessing you either have the wrong cam, or it is significantly advanced. Just like retarding the cam, advancing the cam changes the valve events.

Let's say you go in 4 degrees ahead of the cam card and use a 102 degree ICL. You have now opened the intake valve 4 degrees SOONER. And you close the intake valve SOONER. This builds low RPM cylinder pressure. Which in you case is a bad thing.

Advancing the cam will always reduce intake piston to valve clearance and increase the exhaust valve clearance. This is because you are moving the valve events ahead (advancing them) so you will have more intake valve opening at and around TDC.

If you retard the cam, you will gain P/V clearance on the intake and lose it on the exhaust. This is because you are delaying the intake valve opening, and you'll have less intake valve opening at and around TDC.

You can also figure out what happens on the exhaust side by advancing and retarding cam timing.

BTW, it should be pointed out that cams ground with the de facto Comp call out of 4 degrees advance is mostly marketing hype. They did that because you can get lucky and maybe not need an offset key or bushing to get the cam timed. If you have a timing set with multiple key way options, this ground in advance is totally unnecessary. I guess the best scenario is you don't have a multiple key way option and you just "line up the dots" (I can't say how much I detest this, as degreeing a cam is very simple...I couldn't pass HS shop class if I couldn't do it on 3 different engines) then the 4 degrees advance ground into the cam would get the cam where the cam card called out.

It's all pretty simple stuff really. But it is important. When I look in a catalog and all the cams are ground on the same LSA I know that is a huge compromise.

The real reason why Comp chose the 110 LSA as the de facto LSA for most of their cams is simple economics. When a cam core is cast, the lobes are already there, in rough form. Getting a core for let's say a 105 LSA is much more difficult to find. Same goes for a 114 LSA. You can only move the lobes a few degrees either way or you run out of lobe to grind on.

If you use a 110 LSA on most everything, virtually every core you grab out of the bin will easily take a 110 LSA where a 105 or 114 may not fit on there.

Hope this makes sense.
Thanks so much for taking the time to explain this. I get most of this but have a few questions. Whats wrong with low RPM cylinder pressure? Is this why you think my engine’s cam is possibly advanced too much?
 
Wouldn’t a higher timing point be BETTER for idle as opposed to a “disadvantage “?
Like Goldilocks. need to find the timing that is just right for the conditions.
Idle should be relatively rich for maximum efficiency powerwise. Lots of testing for military and civilian applications establishes this pretty well.
With high compression, there is good heat input and combustion should burn relatively quickly.
So these two factors mean less lead time is needed to develop pressure.
On the other hand, cam designed for higher rpm is going to have overlap at idle that will cause exhaust dilution and may even cause reversion into the intake.
This will reduce the mixture density and slow the burn - therefore requiring more lead time to build pressure for maximum leverage of the crank.

With no load on the engine, timing can be advanced more and more and the engine will seem to like it. Because under light loads the engine can run very lean.
But as soon as the engine is put in drive, it wants to die. It has no power. Just the load of turning the trans TC and pump takes all it has.
The goal is to come up with an initial timing and fuel mix that will produce maximum torque. The way to check this with an auto is by putting into gear at idle. The smallest rpm drop between N and D is the goal.
 
Thanks so much for taking the time to explain this. I get most of this but have a few questions. Whats wrong with low RPM cylinder pressure? Is this why you think my engine’s cam is possibly advanced too much?

Low RPM, high load situations...like rolling down the road in high gear at say...45 MPH and you step on the throttle to accelerate up a hill or grade and you'll get a rattle. Most guys forget God made shifters on the 9th day. So they get into these high load situations and get the rattle.

It's really pretty hard to get detonation above peak torque, although you can do it.

So...I'm guess your cam is either too advanced, wrong for the combo or both. And you're tall gears make it all the worse. I'm not saying you need a big cam, I'm saying you need the RIGHT cam...two totally different things.

That's why a vacuum advance has issues. I'm not ruling out going to one on my car, but if you see how slow the mechanism responds, you'd see why it's hard to make it work when you are close to the edge. It just doesn't react fast enough to pull the timing out under load.

You've got several things working against you. The best plan is pull the valve covers and see where the cam is and start with that.

That's why gearing is such a big deal. Tall gears, tight converters, incorrect cam timing, timing curve out of whack, incorrect carb tuning all affect an engines ability to resist detonation. You can run much higher compression ratios if you plan for it. Also, coolant temp is a BIG deal in detonation resistance. I run my junk at 170 and I'd do it at 160 if it didn't make the heater almost useless. These are NOT modern cars with computers doing a rolling tune up. You'll be much more likely to run into rattle at 190 or 200 degrees than at 170. I did a ton of research before I picked my cooling system components. And it was worth the time. 100 degree days and I run at 170. I may hit 180 at a stop light. Maybe.

All things to consider.
 
Let me bring something that was beat to death 10 years ago
To some camgrinders the lobe center is the high point of the lobe
To some it is the center of the .050 timing
which with an asymetrical lobe can be quite different
One reason some cam vendors want you to set the icl 8 degrees advanced
BVVC
I'll try and find the links
Racer Brown's article is one of them- anyone know where it went?
 
Let me bring something that was beat to death 10 years ago
To some camgrinders the lobe center is the high point of the lobe
To some it is the center of the .050 timing
which with an asymetrical lobe can be quite different
One reason some cam vendors want you to set the icl 8 degrees advanced
BVVC
I'll try and find the links
Racer Brown's article is one of them- anyone know where it went?



If the article you are talking about by Racer Brown covered a bunch of cool stuff...I found it on a Datsun web site. I'll go see of I can find it.
 
Ok, I found the article I'm talking about. No idea how to post a link but it's on datsport.com

Very long but a worthy read.
 
Let me bring something that was beat to death 10 years ago
To some camgrinders the lobe center is the high point of the lobe
To some it is the center of the .050 timing
which with an asymetrical lobe can be quite different
One reason some cam vendors want you to set the icl 8 degrees advanced
BVVC
I'll try and find the links
Racer Brown's article is one of them- anyone know where it went?


Very true, the exact center of an asymmetrical lobe may not be at max lift.

That's why I don't run the lobe to max lift and zero the dial indicator. I zero the dial indicator on the base circle and then subtract .050 or .100 from max lobe lift (for example, if I have a .380 lobe, I'll use .350 or even .280 as a checking point on the lobe) and raise the lifter to that point (example....380 lobe minus .050 is .350) and read the degree wheel. Then I go over max lift and when I get to .350 on the closing side of the lobe, I read the degree wheel again.

The middle of those two readings is the actual ICL.
 
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