Sounds like it's losing the ignition 1 leg somehow. Have you tried holding the key in START and see if it runs?
More ignition issues on the dart
- Thread starter SpriceyStuff
- Start date
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SpriceyStuff
Well-Known Member
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Additional test.........
1...You want to find out if the box is GROUNDED (it MUST be) and if the coil is drawing current. Turn key to "run." Measure coil + to ground. You should have 6--10V or so. If you have "full battery" it means box is not grounded, or coil is open, or something wrong with box
2...Turn key to run. "Rig" a test gap at coil tower. Disconnect distributor pickup and tak the firewall harness end, NOT the distributor end. Repeatedly tap the bare terminal of the connector to ground. You should get a hot single "snap" spark each time
Test for spark with a test gap rigged up at coil tower WHILE CRANKING. Try it using the key to crank, and try it with key in "run" and jumper the starter relay to crank.
To get some idea if the dist. pickup is good, hold your meter probes in the dist. connector and spin the distributor or crank engine. You want your meter on low AC (not DC!!) volts. It should produce about 1V AC
Repeatedly work all ignition system connectors in/ out several times to 'scrub' them clean and fell for tightness The ignition box, the ballast, and ESPECIALLY the distributor connector.
Examine the pickup/ reluctor, look for rust, strike damage, shaft wobble or play, etc.
Pickup coil should show continuity between the two connector pins and OPEN (infinity) to ground.
1...You want to find out if the box is GROUNDED (it MUST be) and if the coil is drawing current. Turn key to "run." Measure coil + to ground. You should have 6--10V or so. If you have "full battery" it means box is not grounded, or coil is open, or something wrong with box
2...Turn key to run. "Rig" a test gap at coil tower. Disconnect distributor pickup and tak the firewall harness end, NOT the distributor end. Repeatedly tap the bare terminal of the connector to ground. You should get a hot single "snap" spark each time
Test for spark with a test gap rigged up at coil tower WHILE CRANKING. Try it using the key to crank, and try it with key in "run" and jumper the starter relay to crank.
To get some idea if the dist. pickup is good, hold your meter probes in the dist. connector and spin the distributor or crank engine. You want your meter on low AC (not DC!!) volts. It should produce about 1V AC
Repeatedly work all ignition system connectors in/ out several times to 'scrub' them clean and fell for tightness The ignition box, the ballast, and ESPECIALLY the distributor connector.
Examine the pickup/ reluctor, look for rust, strike damage, shaft wobble or play, etc.
Pickup coil should show continuity between the two connector pins and OPEN (infinity) to ground.
SpriceyStuff
Well-Known Member
Okay. I’ve already done some of that stuff but I’ll down down the whole list tomorrow at some time and update you
Put a timing light on coil wire and crank over. See if the timing light "lights up"
SpriceyStuff
Well-Known Member
I already know it’s not sparking while cranking. That’s the whole issue
But you said up there ^^^ the coil positive has 12v while cranking and while in run. Is that right?
SpriceyStuff
Well-Known Member
No In RUN the ign 2 wire has about 5.5v and while cranking I get about 11, and this is measured at both at the switch and at the ballast, these locations were picked to rule out a bulkhead issue. The coil also had about 5.5-6v at RUN, still need to check that while cranking.
Then it should start and run in the start position. You're losing voltage on ign1 somehow. Simple enough to check. GO out and HOLD the key in start and see if it runs. It won't hurt to keep the starter engaged long enough to see. I mean seriously dude, WTF? All you gotta do is turn the effin key, my GOD.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
That sounds OK........
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
I missed this. I would say either the distributor pickup connector is dirty/ corroded or even internally broken, or the pickup is bad.
SpriceyStuff
Well-Known Member
That’s the thing. It doesn’t. That’s the whole issue. At this point the only thing I can think of is my pickup went bad, cause it should spark when the distributor turns, but it doesn’t. Even if I pull the distributor out and spin it quickly by hand I get zilch. I get one spark when turning to start, one spark when turning back to run. That’s it.
SpriceyStuff
Well-Known Member
Yeah I tried cleaning that out with cleaner and cotton swabs to no avail. That’s why I’m thinking it Seems like it’s the pickup itself
Take distributor out , put ohm leads on connector and spin the shaft. If the meter beeps, the pickup is most likely good.
SpriceyStuff
Well-Known Member
It doesn’t
SpriceyStuff
Well-Known Member
I did. I don’t have the vacuum advance hooked up cause it causes it to detonate.
Then I would say its NFG. If your ohm meter "beeps" with continuity normally, then it should beep with a test lead touching each connector and you spinning the shaft.
Dave999
Well-Known Member
stick your meter on AC Volts in the mili volt range that measures the samllets voltages.
put black lead in common and red lead in volts (+) or the red and black sockets (depends on meter)
put 1 probe in the socket on the dizzy wire plug, use a self tapping screw or a wad of aluuminiun foil to hold it in. and 1 probe on the bullet of the distributor wire plug and spin the drive with your hand, doesn't matter which way
or drive it with a drill of eletcric screw driver (although you will need 3 hands to do that)
you should see the meter register some small volatge that gets bigger the faster you go.
if you don't see any meter action you are in the wrong meter range volts or Kvolts OR the pickup is bad.
if you do see some volts measured, check the gap between pickup and the 8 or 6 point iron part that spins, set it correctly , clean up the connector and try again.
other test is continuity test
Do not spin the rotor its not necessary for this test
And you can do this one with the dizzy in the motor. its easier to do.
Just connect both leads together with the meter on the beep or diode setting and test your meter to fimiliarise yourself with the sound of GOOD circuit GOOD continuity which will be a clear beep or a good stong light indicator of continuity, most beep . if its beeps you know you are on the correct setting.
You can now apply the leads to the dizzy pickup one to socket one to bullet, doesn't matter which way and it should beep.
if it doesn't, the coil in the pickup is burned out or snapped
rockauto or similar for a new pickup
make sure you get a v8 one for a v8 or a slant 6 one for a slant six. otherwise you will have to un rivet the pickup from the plate it comes on, and re rivet it onto the one you have, and the wire colours will be wrong.
Dave
put black lead in common and red lead in volts (+) or the red and black sockets (depends on meter)
put 1 probe in the socket on the dizzy wire plug, use a self tapping screw or a wad of aluuminiun foil to hold it in. and 1 probe on the bullet of the distributor wire plug and spin the drive with your hand, doesn't matter which way
or drive it with a drill of eletcric screw driver (although you will need 3 hands to do that)
you should see the meter register some small volatge that gets bigger the faster you go.
if you don't see any meter action you are in the wrong meter range volts or Kvolts OR the pickup is bad.
if you do see some volts measured, check the gap between pickup and the 8 or 6 point iron part that spins, set it correctly , clean up the connector and try again.
other test is continuity test
Do not spin the rotor its not necessary for this test
And you can do this one with the dizzy in the motor. its easier to do.
Just connect both leads together with the meter on the beep or diode setting and test your meter to fimiliarise yourself with the sound of GOOD circuit GOOD continuity which will be a clear beep or a good stong light indicator of continuity, most beep . if its beeps you know you are on the correct setting.
You can now apply the leads to the dizzy pickup one to socket one to bullet, doesn't matter which way and it should beep.
if it doesn't, the coil in the pickup is burned out or snapped
rockauto or similar for a new pickup
make sure you get a v8 one for a v8 or a slant 6 one for a slant six. otherwise you will have to un rivet the pickup from the plate it comes on, and re rivet it onto the one you have, and the wire colours will be wrong.
Dave
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SpriceyStuff
Well-Known Member
Okay so I double checked the gap. Gap is set to the spec I found in my repair manual. Voltage test gives me a peak of about .2 in the millivolts measure. I’ve seen online it’s supposed to be in the .5v range(?). Continuity test yields no results. Testing other (known good) components I get a beep but dizzy gives me nothing. Time to replace? A local parts store happens to have one in stock
You have been given misleading advice in post #39. Spinning the dist shaft generates a small AC voltage. Only Allah knows how that would interfere with an ohms reading, because when you measure resistance there must be no voltage across, or current flow through, the device being measured.
Turning the dist shaft by hand should generate [ measure it ] a small AC voltage of millivolts. If you increase the shaft speed, the millivolts will increase & depending on the speed can reach several volts. This indicates the p/up is ok.
Turning the dist shaft by hand should generate [ measure it ] a small AC voltage of millivolts. If you increase the shaft speed, the millivolts will increase & depending on the speed can reach several volts. This indicates the p/up is ok.
SpriceyStuff
Well-Known Member
Ok so on both the current pickup and the new one I got at the store, the meter does not beep with the continuity test. I get numbers like .2-.3. On another distributor I have laying around, it DOES beep and I get like 0-0.001. I’m not sure how to interpret this information.
0.2 what? Ohms? Volts? The continuity test is NOT conclusive. The voltage test IS.
Continuity is looking for...continuity. Very low resistance. At some point, if there is too much resistance in the device being measured, you will not get a beep. This can also vary between meters. Also, the resistance of the p/ups can vary 150-400 ohms. 150 ohm unit might beep, 400 ohm unit may not, but both are actually ok to use.
Use the millivolt test. It is more accurate & tells you all you need to know.
Continuity is looking for...continuity. Very low resistance. At some point, if there is too much resistance in the device being measured, you will not get a beep. This can also vary between meters. Also, the resistance of the p/ups can vary 150-400 ohms. 150 ohm unit might beep, 400 ohm unit may not, but both are actually ok to use.
Use the millivolt test. It is more accurate & tells you all you need to know.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Don't depend on low ohms continuity. Those pickups vary and I dont' remember---200--400 ohms? That really does not tell you much about "if it will work." If it is OPEN or shorted to ground then you know you have troubles. Again, as several of us have said, put it in, set gap, make certain gap will not close up and strike the reluctor, and spin it with your AC scale and it should put out around 1V AC
Dave999
Well-Known Member
i think you are on the right track the voltage value you measure when you spin is totally depnedent on how fast you spin
and if, say, half the coil in the pickup has fused togther but the other half is still kinda working you will get a voltage but tiny and too small to trigger your igntion box
there is enoug here to indciate that a new pickup, just for piece of mind, is not money wasted.
and provided your regulator and alternator are all in good condition tha chances of wierd voltage spikes killing it are low
the pickups die from old age vibration humidity and heat normally. its a magnet on a steel holder which has tip near the relcutor star a small coil of hair thin wire that is painted in varnish is hidden in the black bit that sits around the tip. The points of the star moving past the pickup wave the magentic field around as they pass the tip of the magnet and coil holder, you can feel this happening, a moving magnetic field causes a small current in the coil and a volatge between its ends. 1 end of the coil connects to 1 lead on the dizzy the other end of the coil connects to the other... if the varnish on the wire starts to degrade fewer and fewer of the loops of wire in the coil do any good work and you end up with this situation.
or the magnet looses its magnetism and with low magnetism the voltage produced is just too low
vibration and heat kills magnetism, you un magnitise things by heateing them up and repeatedly htting them with a hammer. heat and vibration can have an adverse impact on thin varnished wire.. hence the pickups have a life that is limited to some time period that will have been calculated to be longer than the orginal warranty on the car in question...
But someone here will pipe up saying they haven't change the pickup in their dizzy for 50 years..... all i can say is lucky lucky boy...
dave
and if, say, half the coil in the pickup has fused togther but the other half is still kinda working you will get a voltage but tiny and too small to trigger your igntion box
there is enoug here to indciate that a new pickup, just for piece of mind, is not money wasted.
and provided your regulator and alternator are all in good condition tha chances of wierd voltage spikes killing it are low
the pickups die from old age vibration humidity and heat normally. its a magnet on a steel holder which has tip near the relcutor star a small coil of hair thin wire that is painted in varnish is hidden in the black bit that sits around the tip. The points of the star moving past the pickup wave the magentic field around as they pass the tip of the magnet and coil holder, you can feel this happening, a moving magnetic field causes a small current in the coil and a volatge between its ends. 1 end of the coil connects to 1 lead on the dizzy the other end of the coil connects to the other... if the varnish on the wire starts to degrade fewer and fewer of the loops of wire in the coil do any good work and you end up with this situation.
or the magnet looses its magnetism and with low magnetism the voltage produced is just too low
vibration and heat kills magnetism, you un magnitise things by heateing them up and repeatedly htting them with a hammer. heat and vibration can have an adverse impact on thin varnished wire.. hence the pickups have a life that is limited to some time period that will have been calculated to be longer than the orginal warranty on the car in question...
But someone here will pipe up saying they haven't change the pickup in their dizzy for 50 years..... all i can say is lucky lucky boy...
dave
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