DionR
Well-Known Member
So did the old school, pre laser alignment machine, guys check for run out?
Old school alignment guys; gauge mount idea. What am I missing?
- Thread starter DionR
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It doesn’t matter what equipment that you use if it is set up wrong it will not be accurate. Any alignment done to the wrong specs is still going to be wrong no matter what equipment you use to do it with.
Yes, that is how I was taught. Rim clamps had the same problem then that they do today. Because all wheels are not made the same some are more challenging to get a good clamp on than others. Which can lead to clamps slipping and or falling off in the middle of an alignment. Most had different tips to adapt to different wheels but sometimes it seemed like nothing would fit good. This can be frustrating for the tech. And back then you had running boards, mudflaps and other bs to deal with also. I liked to use the hub when possible because it was easier and compensation was generally not needed (due to the rim clamp or a bent wheel) for camber and caster.
Shop managers don't want you spending all day on an alignment and if you're working commission and getting paid a flat rate that's not awesome either. I'm not surprised that a tech might get frustrated trying to adapt new equipment to old cars especially if cars aren't their hobby.
If you are willing to learn how to do alignments and you understand your equipment and are willing to spend the extra time to do a good job then you are probably better off doing it yourself. Plus then you know exactly where to get ahold of the guy who did your alignment to chew him out or run him down if it isn't right.
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If they were using wheel clamps I'm sure most of them did. Thing is that using hub mounted gauges was easier on older cars, everything was steel so magnetic gauges were usually pretty easy to make work without a wheel clamp. And there were hub adaptors for different applications, the Snap-On magnetic gauges I have from my old man's shop had a handful of adaptors that went onto various different hubs.
Now with aluminum wheels and hubs using wheel clamps is a lot more common, nothing to stick a magnetic gauge to the hub.
Exactly my point. A shop set up to do alignments on modern cars will not necessarily be able to adapt their equipment to these cars. Not that it can't be done, but if it's not something they ever have to do then it's not going to be something they're familiar with. Which is why there have been multiple threads lately about modern shops declining doing alignments on these cars.
A set of turn tables, something like the SPC gauge and a set of toe plates and you can do your own. Sure, the first few times might take a bit of time to get things right, but after that it's not hard and you can probably get better results than trying to take it into a modern shop that isn't going to put the effort into getting it right on one of these cars. Nothing against the techs, they can probably set up several cars in the time it takes me to do mine, but they can't get it right on my car in that amount of time either.
Yup, as long as that surface is parallel to the hub surface you're good to go.
DionR
Well-Known Member
I explained up front what I had and wanted. He said bring it down, they can do it. And if the tech had used the adapters they did in the end, it would have gone much faster. Didn't pop a sensor off once after the manager came back and told him to "use the red adapters". Biggest issue there was the tighter fender openings.
The tech drove off in a nice older C10 so he isn't completely out of the hobby. I am running SPC uppers on this car and he figured out how to change the caster, but couldn't figure out how to keep that setting and change the camber. Had to go get another tech to help him figure it out. That tells me he knows how to use the machine but really doesn't know what he is changing or why. No real concept of what he is doing other than making everything green.
Should have been quick and easy with the SPC UCA. Instead the whole deal was frustrating and a fiasco. And it wasn't because I got in the way or was even standing there.
In the end, I think I got a better alignment using a digital angle finder than I got there.
Honestly, I only went because I knew I was working with tools that weren't the best and only wanted a check. I've been chasing an issue and when my home alignment didn't fix it I wanted to confirm that the alignment wasn't potentially still an issue. When the numbers came back wildly different side to side I figured I didn't do a good job so we went ahead with the full alignment. Now I think the wildly different numbers were because they had the sensors on crooked.
I had to set my toe yesterday because I swapped my Borgenson box for an OEM power box. Since I was doing that, figured I would check my caster/camber since I had the tool now.
This is my setup as of now:
With that, the caster/camber numbers I got were 3.25/-0.25 for the left and 5.75/-0.5 for the right. So the right caster doesn't match the original numbers nor the numbers from the shop. The left side is kind of close to what I remember getting from the shop and is the only side that was changed.
A test drive made me think the issue I have been chasing was due to the Borgenson box going bad as the nervous twitchy feel seemed mostly gone. But the car still didn't drive great, which would make some sense with the wildly different caster numbers, I think. I am hoping to square them up later today and see if it drive better.
BTW, here is my setup for checking toe:
That's has gotten consistent enough that I am getting the same numbers each time. Settled with the toe at an 1/8" in for now.
DionR
Well-Known Member
I just don't want to have to be setting my bearing preload over again after doing an alignment. I don't even want to pop the cap off if I can avoid it. I like it and it removes some variables. Just not how I want to do it.
I would add that at some point I won't have that style spindle and that won't work for me then.
Bearing preload?
You mean the grueling 15 second long procedure?
You mean the grueling 15 second long procedure?
DionR
Well-Known Member
Yep, that's the one.
Just rather not have to take it apart to do the alignment. Grease is like glitter, it get's everywhere somehow. And opening it up introduces the potential for contamination.
Rather just leave it all alone if I can.
If that was the only option, sure. Not a problem.
There are other options. I often aim for the simplest and cheapest one as long as it is effective.
Some people default to the expensive stuff because they have the money and not the drive to find other ways.
I'm not poor but the following phrase sort of applies:
Poverty is a great motivator.
Some people default to the expensive stuff because they have the money and not the drive to find other ways.
I'm not poor but the following phrase sort of applies:
Poverty is a great motivator.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Agreed. Before buying my Longacre gauge, I think I was into my setup less than $20 for a stick of 1x1 aluminum and some fiber board.
On a wheel like yours, I gotta believe a small flat thin steel plate bungee'd over the round opening could be considered parallel to your hub. If its not, then you should see some noticeable "wobble" if you spin the wheel. Then use your gauge to attach to the plate and have at it.
I use a similar gauge (Joe's Racing Products brand) but remove the center caps on my Weld Prostars and grease cap to attach it to the hub. I likewise have the double adjustable SPC UCA's and caster/camber is surely simple to dial in and get what you want.
340sFastback
Well-Known Member
To check my caster camber I gotta first pop dog dish caps off of body colored wheels which risk scratching wheels if not careful. Then pop off grease cap. I haven't rechecked mine since I set it months back so would make good winter activity when roads get snow and salt and car stuck in garage....
Not surprising that you weren't impressed with the alignment you got. Sounds like the guy who told you "Bring it down we can do it" wasn't the guy doing the work. The guy doing the work apparently had not done a car like your's or he would have know what adapters to use. And the guy doing the work didn't have a thorough understanding of how movement of the upper control arm affects caster and camber. Something you might expect from a beginner but not from someone who has a little experience. Your experience may have been different with a tech who had a better understanding and or more experience. I'm curious did they charge you by the hour or a flat fee?
I see you have slip plates under your car. What are they made of? How do you measure your caster swings so that you can calculate caster? Are you swinging 40 degrees and multiplying by 1.5?
DionR
Well-Known Member
Flat rate.
MDS whiteboard panel, I think. Been a little while. I cut squares and smeared grease between 2 sets on the smooth white side. I also stack a pair under each back tire. I wasn't sure how durable they would be, but so far I haven't seen any indication they are coming apart and I have used them several times now.
Do you mean when I used the digital angle finder? Don't recall right now what formula I used. I will see if I can figure out what it was.
The Longacre tool has an angle on the end of it that I am attempting to match in this case. I took a page from @racerjoe (post) and put some tape on the steering column this time. Spent some time eyeballing the angled end of the tool and the body and then marked the tape when it matched so I could repeat it. Then I rolled it the other way and repeated. I am assuming it is 20 degrees both ways, but figured it wasn't all that important to know for sure as long as I could match it. Zero the gauge one way and then read the results the other, so no calculating or multiplying by anything in this case.
Not getting repeatable results yet so I need to fine tune my process. First check was more just an eyeball of the angle of the wheels, this time I tried harder. This time caster/camber was 5.25/-0.375 for the right and 4.25/-0.25 for the left. I think, it's late and the day was full so I could be remembering wrong. Figured since I need to work on the process, I wasn't going to change anything until I had a better handle on it. So I didn't bother recording it either.
Planning to mess with checking for runout too. Just to see if I can and if I find anything.
racerjoe
Well-Known Member
I've actually changed my process and now mark 20 degrees both directions on the floor with tape. Imagine a "V" on the floor next to the tire. However, I do still mark the top of the steering wheel so I know I'm back to center. Also, the real multiplier for a 40 degree sweep is 1.42, not 1.5. Using the rounded up 1.5 will result in nearly a .5 degree error in your caster setting. Also, if you want to make sure your wheels are in line with the rear end, you will want to do the string alignment to get them mostly close, then make final adjustment with the "toe plates".
Here is an idea for 40 degrees. Draw a 10" diameter circle on a piece of cardboard. place a mark on the circumference of the circle and from the mark measure along the circumference 3.49" (or 3.5" rounded off). Draw a straight line from the mark to the center of the circle creating a slice of pie. This is 40 degrees total. Put a mark half way between your marks for your zero degree mark and the marks on each side become 20 degrees.
If you have any of that mds left over you can cut a 10" diameter circle and mark it appropriately. Place the circle centered under the tire and the zero mark 90 degrees to the tire sidewall. Center the wheel then place some tape on the floor at the zero and mark the tape at zero. Repeat for the other side. Now you have a reference for your 20 degree swings.
Use your imagination for variations on the theme. If you don't have a way to cut a circle and can only cut straight then cut a 10" square and cut the corners off so that the 20 degree marks are at the edge.
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DionR
Well-Known Member
Gotcha.
Since I am working to match the angles on the end of the tools, the tape and marks on the steering column are only placed (beyond "center') once that is matched. After that, the marks make it very easy to repeat the same angle as I go back and forth. Doing this alone and having the marks means I don't have to keep running around to the PS to see if I matched the tape.
That said, I suspect that there will be tape on the ground to set the initial markings and they will just be a second check after that.
As I recall, the degree of sweep isn't even required to be 40 for the formula. It's been several months though and I haven't looked up the formula yet.
I think what I did was find an easy to repeat steering wheel angle and then measure the sweep it gave me. It was easier to find a repeatable sweep than trying to match 40 degrees exactly since the formula just had a degree value to input. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that more sweep give's more accurate results and such, though.
Yep, did that a couple of years ago now.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Thanks!
No MDS left. At least not enough to do something like that.
But it's a great idea to figure out a template of some sort. Hopefully I don't have to do my alignment over and over again, but something like that would add to the repeatability if I do.
racerjoe
Well-Known Member
I sweep the caster at the wheel by grabbing the tire with my hands ,pushing and pulling. That way you can set your gauge and watch your marks without getting up and down. Also you can watch the tire on the slip plates to make sure the tire doesn't slip on the top of the plate.
Agree, and I intend on reading it one day, but I am blessed to know a moPar family that has an old machine with books, I remember when he got it over ten years ago, he did mine and when I picked it up it was peeeerrfect.. in every way.
See, he and his son have a hobby, a hobby of domination in the few states around us, well at times he has won it all and some close 2nds
Long family, Longs Garage
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