this is why TTi headers suck for power

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crackedback

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I bet it made more toque with the long TTIs though and the Hedmens will need to go though the inner fenders.
 
Oh the bigger collectors didnt hurt power from the Hedmens either, :poke:
 
I'd love to see a chart comparing HP & TQ readings with the TTIs and the Hedmans (on the same chart) and see if they paralleled up to a certain range or not.
 
TQ was down throughout the range, The hedmans were better on TQ even at 3500 which this engine will likely never see under race condition.
 
FWIW, some general rules of of thumbs regarding headers.

1. The tube diameter determines the rpm of the torque peak. Larger diameter higher rpm for the peak.

2. the length of the tubes determines the torque shape on either side of the peak. Longer tubes favors the torque belwo the peak and shorter tubes above.

3. The collector diameter is the same as tube diameter. Collector has the same impact as tube length.

The impact of Tri-Y and step tube designs is greatly influenced by other parameters in the combination. They could help the mid range or not have any significant impact.
 
Stepped headers are a compromise. This is a known. Now it's shown.
Oh, almost forgot, DLI even complanes about tubes being to long on OOTB headers. That in itself should be telling you something.

Good notes DGC333
 
bla bla bla.. all i know is my car runs better with the tti's then it did with the headmans... different combos require different headders.. big deal.. i do know i have yet to scrape my tti's on the street, yet to burn a plug wire on #5 or #7 cyl., can get #5 and #7 plugs out with eas even when the motor is hot. can get my starter out with no problem and don't hvae aby leaks.... so i'll keep my tti's.
 
rumblefish360 said:
Stepped headers are a compromise. This is a known. Now it's shown.
Oh, almost forgot, DLI even complanes about tubes being to long on OOTB headers. That in itself should be telling you something.

Good notes DGC333
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The w-2 headers weren't stepped. It's 1 7/8 from the flange.

abodyjoe said:
bla bla bla.. all i know is my car runs better with the tti's then it did with the headmans... different combos require different headders.. big deal.. i do know i have yet to scrape my tti's on the street, yet to burn a plug wire on #5 or #7 cyl., can get #5 and #7 plugs out with eas even when the motor is hot. can get my starter out with no problem and don't hvae aby leaks.... so i'll keep my tti's.
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Yes, Joe on our 400hp rides it doesn't make much of a difference and teh headers are a big step up from stock as well. The cheap hedmans suck as well, along with most of the crappy fitting small tube headers.

This is the second engine that has shown a 30hp increase from changing from TTi's to either Hooker SC or Hedman race headers. The first was a 394 now this 416.
 
I think the main thing here is that the TTIs are street headers while the big tube Hookers and Hedmens are race headers.
 
Adam would you consider 1 7/8 w-2 flanged pieces street headers?

Because that's what they were, std TTi pieces for a SB. I think those are race oriented headers being that large on a SB.
 
crackedback said:
The w-2 headers weren't stepped. It's 1 7/8 from the flange.
Click to expand...
Yes, I know, I did see that. Actually, does Headman even make steped headers for W-2's? tti's are actually the only stepped header I've seen for the W-2.

crackedback said:
Agreed! The tti's IMO, are very good on our rides, being street driven for the most part. The blow away the regular offerings in fit, finish, and power producing results.

Yo! Crackback, thanks for the link to the pulls. Those were very cool!
Click to expand...
 
I would say 1 7/8" TTI would be a street type headers and would consider my Hookers that are in 5 pieces including the collector race headers. That is very interesting information, Thanks for posting
 
crackedback said:
Adam would you consider 1 7/8 w-2 flanged pieces street headers?

Because that's what they were, std TTi pieces for a SB. I think those are race oriented headers being that large on a SB.
Click to expand...


Yes, They come ready to bolt up to there 3" exhaust system. Plus with a 400+ cube motor 1-7/8" tubes isnt that big.

The Hooker and Hedmen Race headers have adjustable collectors dont they ?
 
AdamR said:
Yes, They come ready to bolt up to there 3" exhaust system. Plus with a 400+ cube motor 1-7/8" tubes isnt that big.

The Hooker and Hedmen Race headers have adjustable collectors dont they ?
Click to expand...

The hedmans in the video are 1 7/8 and have a fixed collector with a flange, IIRC.

I have two sets of Hookers and the Race Super Comps have an adjustable collector. The 1 3/4 set I have (5204's) are fixed collector. I have a set of 1 7/8 Hooker Race SC's coming and I'll know when they get here.

The problem with the tti's is length, too long, not tube diameter. For fit, sans z-bar and I won't go into the rant here, tti's may be fine for street use. For a decent strip car, they won't be anywhere close to my stuff, that's for sure.
 
Crackedback - Thanks for the cool link. Awesome sounding engine.


FWIW, some general rules of of thumbs regarding headers.

1. The tube diameter determines the rpm of the torque peak. Larger diameter higher rpm for the peak.

2. the length of the tubes determines the torque shape on either side of the peak. Longer tubes favors the torque belwo the peak and shorter tubes above.

3. The collector diameter is the same as tube diameter. Collector has the same impact as tube length.

The impact of Tri-Y and step tube designs is greatly influenced by other parameters in the combination. They could help the mid range or not have any significant impact.
Click to expand...

dgc333 - thanks for the explanation. Simple and I think I get some of the principles now. Now I know that headers are only 1 part of the engine breathing cycle, so air filter, carb, intake, heads, and the rest of the exhaust have impact. But considering your principles.....

Let me see if I get the theory right:

Example headers
- Header A = 1.75 " dia tube, 25" equal length, Collector 3" dia 10" long
- Header B = 2" dia tube, 25" equal length, collector 3" dia, 10" long
- Header C = 2" dia tube, 30" equal length, collector 3" dia, 10" long

"A" compared to "B" --"B" will have its torque peak at a higher RPM than "A". Absolute torque values between the two may vary based upon the rest of parts in "breathing" cycle. "B" may have a be higher torque value than "A" ...or not. It just depends on the individual components.

"C" compared to "B" --"C" will have a "flatter" torque curve BELOW the torque peak RPM (torque builds faster before peak) while "B" may have a "flatter" torque curve ABOVE it (torque falls off slower past peak rpm). Both should have a nearly identical peak RPM but again absolute values may vary.

I know this stuff is a bunch of theory... :read2: but I like to understand some of the thumb rules so I can more easily evaluate marketing hype by different header builders for my engine's mission and not fall into the "bigger" is better trap.

By the way...in the next couple of days, I'm about to fire up my 340 x-head with new TTi headers in my '65. :toothy7: I think they will do better than the slant-six cast iron exhaust manifold I used to run.
 
crackedback said:
The hedmans in the video are 1 7/8 and have a fixed collector with a flange, IIRC.

I have two sets of Hookers and the Race Super Comps have an adjustable collector. The 1 3/4 set I have (5204's) are fixed collector. I have a set of 1 7/8 Hooker Race SC's coming and I'll know when they get here.

The problem with the tti's is length, too long, not tube diameter. For fit, sans z-bar and I won't go into the rant here, tti's may be fine for street use. For a decent strip car, they won't be anywhere close to my stuff, that's for sure.
Click to expand...

As we all know, race motors need race components. At Fall Fling, I bought a set of TTIs but have yet to install them on the Barracuda (probably because the motor isn't finished yet). I also bought a set of their W5 flanges for the W5/416 motor for two reasons: 1), because it's going into a '35 Ply coupe and of course, they do not have anything for that application and 2) the headers not only have to be custom-built for the '35 but also for what the motor needs. Even if there were someone making off the shelf headers for a small block Mopar in an early Ply coupe, I wouldn't buy them because they do not fit the needs of that particular motor.
 
abodyjoe said:
bla bla bla.. all i know is my car runs better with the tti's then it did with the headmans... different combos require different headders.. big deal.. i do know i have yet to scrape my tti's on the street, yet to burn a plug wire on #5 or #7 cyl., can get #5 and #7 plugs out with eas even when the motor is hot. can get my starter out with no problem and don't hvae aby leaks.... so i'll keep my tti's.
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Can't comment on how they run compared to other headers because it's the only ones I have used.

But I have never scraped my Hedmans on the street. I have never burned a plug wire on 5 or 7 (just route the wire under the tubes). Plugs are as easy to remove and install on 5 & 7 as any other plug in the engine (use 5/8" hex magnum plugs). Both full size and mini starters can be installed/removed without issue. I haven't had a leak in 20k miles and counting.

At over twice the cost of coated Hedmans and almost 5 times the cost of painted ones the TTI's don't sound so good to me.
 
socal_65dartgt Good post. It all looks good to me. But than again, I woulnd't set nothin in stone anymore with the way tech. gets into things these days. LOL
The more things change, the more they stay the same, the more confused I get, the more I just wanna stay old school and just build it like a hammer.
 
abodyjoe said:
bla bla bla.. all i know is my car runs better with the tti's then it did with the headmans... different combos require different headders.. big deal.. i do know i have yet to scrape my tti's on the street, yet to burn a plug wire on #5 or #7 cyl., can get #5 and #7 plugs out with eas even when the motor is hot. can get my starter out with no problem and don't hvae aby leaks.... so i'll keep my tti's.
Click to expand...

Joe,your absolutely right!!!...
 
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