What engine setup (blown small or aluminum big)

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Map63Vette

Map63Vette

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So everytime I look at my car I come up with a new plan for it. I have a 67 Dart that currently sits with a more or less factory 318 (4 bbl intake) and a 4 speed. I want to turn the car into a real ground pounder, but I realize that I will be driving it on the street quite a bit since there is no way I could resist, lol. I was looking at trying to make around 500 hp, though more is always nice (maybe a nitrous shot on top for around 600 for racing). I plan to drag the car every once in a while, maybe 2 or 3 times a month and would like to shoot for 11's or 10's to beat my friend's Mustang. I am mainly concerned with keeping the front end light so I can drive the car on the street without awkward handling. I toyed with the idea of a stroker, but I've always wanted a supercharged engine, so I looked into that as well. I found I could make around 500 hp on a small block with a supercharger without too much trouble, but it's $5000+ for a supercharger kit and a fair deal more for good heads and other engine goodies to match it. Then the idea of an aluminum big block crossed my mind. I could make tons of power and torque on engine alone and still keep the weight down, but the block alone is around $3000. What do you guys think? I would think a big block would be better suited for town driving with all the torque it has to spare, but is shoe-horning a big block into a Dart going to cost more in the long run? Would an all aluminum big block come out cheaper than a supercharger small block or would they cost about the same the in the long run?
 
I guess what the question boils down to is: what is the most affordable lightweight 500 streetable horsepower option for an A body? I know you can make 500 hp on a small block, but it takes a lot of engine work. On the other hand, you can make relatively easy horsepower with a big block, but you have to spend a lot to make it lighter, so is it a fairly equal money to power to weight difference between the two, or one route better than the other?
 
Have you thought about a turbo instead of a supercharger? It is more fabrication of parts, but cheaper than both said.
 
Really? I thought when I priced out turbo kits they always seem to come up more expensive, though I think most of those may have been dual kits and not a single. I also got to looking at the weight numbers and found out an aluminum big block really isn't quite as lighter as I thought. Turns out it's only about a 100 pounds difference, which while nice, wouldn't be too hard to make up with just other aluminum parts. I figured I'd go aluminum heads either way and I would be putting headers on it (cast iron mainfolds on the 318 now), so I could knock off enough weight to get the BB down to SB size as it sits now. I just remember building an all iron 440 for a 69 Charger for my brother years back and it was so heavy fully assembled it started bending the engine stand bolts.
 
Turbo'd V8's are a blast to drive, but it's hard to be consistent at the track. Well, atleast that was my personal experience. If you have any fabrication skills you can build a turbo system for WAY less than what you're looking at, as Dustin said. It's not hard, but can be a little tedious when figuring out where you want to route your piping. BUT, if you are willing to put in the time it would be well worth it. However, you can make 500hp fairly easily with a 408 stroker, and not have to worry about tuning for boost.
 
Although I love the head snapping response of a highly modified "A" engine, for what you're describing I'd go the "B" engine route. A warmed over 383 should fit the bill nicely, good torque, highly reliable, with a large selection of performance parts available. The torque curve will allow you to use a more streetable rear gear, which is a plus with gas prices as they are.
 
If you are questioning the economics of it now, I's suggest you re-think things. A 10 second Mopar is a lot more money than a 10 second Ford. A streetable low 11s car will run you around $17K give or take to build from what you have. That's for the safety stuff, the cage, a real transmission, suspension and tires, and engine. This is a realistic guess, not meant as a cut. But that's what it takes to do something reliable and safe.
 
Looking it all over it's hard to look past the afforability of the BB. I can get 500 hp out of a BB with just a set of heads and compression, but to pull those kind of numbers with a SB I have to pretty much redo the whole engine. I'd love to go boosted, but I'd have to go with a kit. I don't have the tools or really the experience to piece together a system that I would be happy with. I would wonder how reliable or streetable a 500 hp SB would be as well. What all would I need to look at for a BB swap though to add to the costs? Is it mostly just a drop it in kind of deal with conversion mounts and pay a fortune for headers? Or do I need to worry about specific oil pans, moving other parts around, etc? I know I would need a new bellhousing at the least, and possibly a manual steering swap, but otherwise is there anything that normally gets in the way?
 
To run numbers like what you want you need more than 500hp. you'll need good headers, a real clutch, an SFI approved flywheel and blowshield, a driveshaft loop, a roll 6pt cage welded in properly, a fire jacket, aftermarket dated seat belts, a fuel system, a decent rear suspension and especially shocks, decent tires, excellent brakes, refurbished front suspension (those two are assumptions of a normal un-restored street car). The engine and 500hp is a piece of cake...lol
 
Map63Vette said:
Looking it all over it's hard to look past the afforability of the BB....
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If doing it at the lowest cost is the goal I agree with selecting a normally aspirated BB. Use aluminum heads, intake and water pump to lower the weight.
 
My budget 440 consists of a 72 block, six pack crank and rods, forged domed pistons, milled 346 heads , a big solid cam and 250hp worth of nitrous. That should be good for 750hp total and either go like stink or make a Youtube highlight video!
 
Lol, nice. I've been looking over a bunch of different builds and think I may have finally found a bit of a compromise. While the low 11's would be great, I think I'd probably be happy with high 11's or low 12's for now and some more engine work down the road to get the times down. I was looking through the Car Craft stuff with Brian from IMM's 360 stroker build and adding up the costs. I think I can do it a fair deal cheaper, at least to get it in the car and running, without losing much for power. I can get a fully balanced and forged SCAT stroker kit for $1800 and would not mind reusing a bunch of parts off of a core engine. For instance, I wouldn't bother buying a $250 oil pan or the $600 dollars of valvetrain stuff or all new ignition stuff (yet at least). I wouldn't mind reusing the stock stuff for now and upgrading later, I wouldn't think it would make a huge performance difference and it would save at least a $1000 in parts. Overall I came up with a little over $5000 to get a good running 408 stroker (though I know these numbers never work out as well as anyone hopes).
 
If I had to answer this question for my own, I personally would go an aluminum block lightweight 570 something cubic inch motor as just the sound of them at around 3000 rpm will make you a believer. If lack of money is in the way of getting something like that then a Turbo engine should definitely be in the works as the future starts here :)

Between a Stroker and a Turbo, Turbo
 
mopardrt said:
350?
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UOP said:
:scratch:
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they have there places but they are kind of a waste to put in a abody with a plan to go fast since they take up just as much place as a 400 and are just as havy compared to a smallblock,dont even know if there is any strokerkits for them gues they may have a oddball small bore size but dont know that much about those early B-Blocks:)

in this situation i would go for a blown smallblock but im kind of biased..
 
That IS a NICE and CLEAN setup.

I have imagined that setup before....never seen it.
It has its limits....but that IS nice.

I am totally a advocate of Turbocharging....I say turbo it.
*This is not mine, but almost exactly how I will plumb my own turbo system.
turboSBM1.jpg


8)
 
inkjunkie said:
Why not build a somewhat mellow 400 stroker and add a procharger later?? While the base motor is not what I would call mellow the final result is hard to beat, if you are looking to haul ***......http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_0812_1100_hp_pump_gas_mopar_b_motor/index.html
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That's actually kind of what I had in mind. I was thinking I'd do a 408 stroker now and maybe toss a blower on it later down the road when I had the money for it. That was the main reason I was looking into a fully forged stroker setup. Honestly, 400-450 hp in the car now would probably be worth several months of smiles when I hit the gas pedal, lol, so I could always shoot for my low 11 goal later, but I at least would like to hit low 12's with the first setup.

I absolutely love that big block rumble, especially when an open header drag car drives by in the pits, that thump in my chest always gets me going, lol. My dad and I rebuilt a 440 for a 69 Charger for my brother years back. I loved just standing behind that car and hearing someone lay on the gas. Not that it's really driving my decision at all, but how do small block strokers sound? Have they got the same low end kind of thump that the big blocks have?
 
W2-1969Dart said:
$3300.00 cheap reliable hp
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Wow, where did you get that kit? I was looking at SDCE and their different stage kits, but they were around $5000 entry level I thought. I was really leaning toward a blower setup like that intially, but I couldn't hardly find a small block Mopar kit, Chevy and Ford are everywhere, but Mopar as usual is hard to find.
 
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