How to turn over '69 225 by hand + what on crank pulley determines 0 TDC?

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cudak888

cudak888

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I'm working on diagnosing a no-spark/insufficient spark situation on my '69 225 (Valiant 100), and when trying to check for slack in the timing chain, I realized that there isn't any center bolt to allow me to turn the engine with a breaker bar:

2ylk4uv.jpg


Thus leading me to the question: How do you fellows spin one of these by hand? Pull the plugs to overcome the compression resistance?

This also brings up one other question: I found the TDC/5/10 degree marks on the timing chain cover, but I don't know what signifies the 0 TDC mark on the pulley. There is a spot on the edge about 1" wide that is flattened out - am I to assume that the center of this flat section is supposed to represent 0 TDC?

-Kurt
 
Look for a small V-shaped notch in the edge of the pulley nearest to the timing scale on the cover.

You can rotate the engine by pulling up on the section of fan belt between the crank pulley and the alternator, and turning the steel fan (assuming it is still there). Of course pulling the plugs makes all that easier. There IS threading in the snout of the crank; maybe someone will chime in with the internal thread size & pitch.
 
maybe check the distributor gear. I believe some /6's came with a plastic gear that is prone to splitting in half and causing a no run situation
 
nm9stheham said:
Look for a small V-shaped notch in the edge of the pulley nearest to the timing scale on the cover.

You can rotate the engine by pulling up on the section of fan belt between the crank pulley and the alternator, and turning the steel fan (assuming it is still there). Of course pulling the plugs makes all that easier. There IS threading in the snout of the crank; maybe someone will chime in with the internal thread size & pitch.
Click to expand...

Good to know, because that's not what I was looking at on the pulley.

I wasn't able to spin it with the belt and fan, but I didn't have time to pull all six plugs today. Will try it tomorrow.

Vitamin c said:
maybe check the distributor gear. I believe some /6's came with a plastic gear that is prone to splitting in half and causing a no run situation
Click to expand...

I can't even find a electronic distributor replacement without the gear, but I cranked the car with the distributor cap off, and the rotor spun as intended.

Mind you, I drove the car a couple of miles successfully before stopping at the tire shop. Wouldn't fire up, and hasn't since then (that was yesterday).

EDIT: Since you mentioned the ignition problem, I figured I'd post the results of my testing today:

Ignition lock cylinder/switch: Continuity on IGN1 and IGN2 at RUN and START
Run circuit (brown) @ ballast resistor: 10.3v @ START, 7v @ RUN
Start circuit (blue) @ ballast resistor: 10v @ START, 8v @ RUN
Start circuit (blue) at coil +: 7v @ START, 10v @ RUN
Coil primary resistance: 1.8 ohms
Coil secondary resistance: 9K ohms

Strangely enough, my timing light IS blinking for Cylinder #1 on crank, but is doing so very faintly.

-Kurt
 
If you pull hard enough on the belt, you ought to able to turn the crank with the fan.

BTW, the blue is the run circuit (IGN1) and the brown is the start circuit (IGN2). Coil + should see 6-9 volts when actually running, and should be 10 or higher in START (close to cranking battery voltage). Are your coil + numbers reversed?

I would not pay attention to the timing light intensity; it just uses the #1 spark as a trigger, not for setting the flash lamp intensity.

As a test of spark strength, pull the coil spark wire from the distributor and place that end about 1/4" from metal and crank; the spark should jump that 1/4" gap in open air with a strong, blue spark. If good, then timing or fuel is the issue.

As a simple check of fuel: Have you taken off the air cleaner, held the choke butterfly open, and looked down the carb throat while moving the throtle by hand to see if you get a squirt of fuel everytime you move the throttle off of idle? When you try to start, are you pumping the accelerator a couple of times priro to trying to start?
 
If you take off the PS pump pulley, a standard Mopar crank bolt and washer will screw into the crank snout after you clean out all the gunk...
 
nm9stheham said:
If you pull hard enough on the belt, you ought to able to turn the crank with the fan.

BTW, the blue is the run circuit (IGN1) and the brown is the start circuit (IGN2). Coil + should see 6-9 volts when actually running, and should be 10 or higher in START (close to cranking battery voltage). Are your coil + numbers reversed?

I would not pay attention to the timing light intensity; it just uses the #1 spark as a trigger, not for setting the flash lamp intensity.

As a test of spark strength, pull the coil spark wire from the distributor and place that end about 1/4" from metal and crank; the spark should jump that 1/4" gap in open air with a strong, blue spark. If good, then timing or fuel is the issue.

As a simple check of fuel: Have you taken off the air cleaner, held the choke butterfly open, and looked down the carb throat while moving the throtle by hand to see if you get a squirt of fuel everytime you move the throttle off of idle? When you try to start, are you pumping the accelerator a couple of times priro to trying to start?
Click to expand...

I was able to crank with the fan today. Also found TDC.

The values on the coil today didn't particularly differ from previous:

w/key in "RUN":

Coil NEG: 0.12v
Coil +: ~6v

Cranking (w/key):

Coil + : 10v

The carb is leaking at the base gasket, but I am getting a strong stream of fuel. Mind you, I was able to drive 5 miles with no problems. The problem manifested itself only after I had stopped the car and shut it down willingly.

I plugged in a spare spark plug (not for the 225 though - it's for a 318 or Magnum 5.2) to a longer wire to keep it away from the engine, and this was the result:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ3-wNzWf80"]Valiant - 225 spark test - YouTube[/ame]

I didn't gap that plug, but it looks like a weak spark to me.

-Kurt
 
Points ignition or electronic? Voltages @ coil are OK. Acting like a shorted condenser if you are still running points...
 
Good deal on the timing marks.

A test of a spark across a plug in open air is pretty meaningless. It takes a LOT more spark energy to jump the plug gap in the cylinder with a compressed fuel/air mixture than in open air. So only test spark as described before with a 1/4" gap to metal. (Of course if the spark is weak across a plug, then it will be worse or none over a 1/4" gap.)

You can do a different test to isolate the coil: Disconnect the coil - from the ECU wiring, turn the key to RUN, and then use a jumper to ground the coil - for a moment and when you unground the coil -, there ought to be a good spark across the 1/4" gap. If not, then the coil is suspect. You will get a spark each time you ground and unground the coil - with the key in RUN; just DON'T be holding the bare lead from the coil- when you unground it; you'll get a good kick!
 
Seems as if the database ate most of the ignition troubleshooting posts. I'll create a new thread soon for that discussion (given the main thread title - which has little to do with the ignition problem).

Incidentally, I was able to turn the engine over (w/spark plugs installed) by grabbing both the belt and the fan at the same time; just required a bit more grunt and coordination than I had initially figured.

-Kurt
 
cudak888 said:
Seems as if the database ate most of the ignition troubleshooting posts. I'll create a new thread soon for that discussion (given the main thread title - which has little to do with the ignition problem).
Click to expand...

Figured I'd update quickly here, seeing as I found the problem:

The carb float was a quarter inch too low. I also found some sediment being pumped out of the fuel pump. I cleaned it out with fresh fuel, drained the tank, fixed the float, and she runs like a top.

-Kurt
 
I put a crank bolt in my 64 slant a few weeks ago. I forgot the size, but the bolt head takes a 1-1/8" socket since I had to buy a set of 1/2" impact sockets to get that apparently rare size (Harbor Freight, needed SAE set anyway). I had the bolt from a 74 slant (too long for my 64 w/ only the damper pulley) I took to Ace Hardware and they had one the correct shorter length. It is a fine thread. I had to spend time cleaning all the gunk out of the bolt hole, w/ gasoline, q-tips, and air. BTW, the same crank bolt fits a 426 Hemi. Slants have a very rugged crankshaft.
 
Takes the same crank bolt as a big block. In fact, a big block balancer will work on a slant too, as long as it's a balancer for an internally balanced engine. You'll need to remark where the TDC mark is on the balancer though.
 
If your fan belt is tight, try using the fan to turn the engine?
 
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