Front End Floats

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phildart

dartparts12
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My 67 Dart is a complete resto. Front end new top to bottom. The car drifts while driving. Any suggestions to tighten this up.
 
Two scoops of ice cream, a few tie rods, and some root beer... :p

Then you will have a front end float.... :D
 
phildart said:
My 67 Dart is a complete resto. Front end new top to bottom. The car drifts while driving. Any suggestions to tighten this up.
Click to expand...

How good is the alignment???

Is the front end height set to where you want it??? Set the front end height first before alignment, then align...
 
krazykuda said:
How good is the alignment???

Is the front end height set to where you want it??? Set the front end height first before alignment, then align...
Click to expand...
Height is right. No sway bar. Had an alignment done. Steering box is new. Word from most of the guys this is typical. The make an aftermarket steering box to correct this not sure if there is anything else. No Root Beer Float needed.
 
could it be that it was aligned to the specs for bias ply tires and you are running radials and need a new spec for that?
 
it is typical of most of these cars - I had a 74 that danced around pretty good.. if it isn't going to kill you - I think a swaybar would go a long way to helping
 
Check your toe with a buddy and a tape measure. Compare it to OEM if the same try 1/8" in or out until it "feels" right. I find that the older ones need the personal touch with a road test.
 
And more caster helps it track better as well.
Did you use the MOOG offset UCA bushings?

Jeff
 
Hmmm,
Apologies if I missed this, power steering ?
Thx.
 
MY 67 doesn't float or wander and the only thing different from "original" is that the

front end has new tight components

is aligned more towards radial tires

has a set of stiffer t bars

and a sway bar

It is as solid as anything else I own

"No comment!!" on the speed it's seen

Now so far as sway bar that is PROBABLY not going to have much effect on "going down a straight lane" on the freeway.
 
It is ABSOLUTLY not necesary to change the "type" of steering box to get stable handling. The first thing I would do is make sure everything is tight, no worn parts, (especially the lower control arm bushings) then find out what the actual alingment angles were set at. Like was mentioned, stock specs for bias tires will drive awful with modern tires.
 
definitely not normal to wander.Enough caster will self centre the wheels
1/16 - 1/8 toe in and it should track very straight!
 
Well, I don't really know what drift is. But I know wander. So if your car is wandering between the edges of the lane, requiring constant steering inputs for correction, that totally sucks
You gotta start with the tires, the alignment specs and the steering box adjustment.
So as to tires, the front have to matching and have been inflated to the same spec and not too low a pressure.
The alignment needs to be accurate with little or no camber variation from side to side, and be from about .3 to .8 negative. The caster split can be biased a bit, but the closer to equal the better.and the higher (more positive)the better. The toe-in is almost critical.
The sector shaft endplay inside the steering box needs to be tightened up from time to time, but if it's adjusted wrong, it will immediately have steering issues.It has to be adjusted in a very specific way.
And finally, and probably most importantly, is ride height. The ride height needs to be such that an imaginary line drawn thru the lower control arm pivot points, is pretty close to dead parralel to the ground. This will produce the least amount of camber change as the wheel travels up and down. Camber change causes toe-in change which causes wander.
There is about a 2 inch window where camber change remains near to, zero. You need to be in the window. The best place to see the window, is on the alignment rack with the T-bar loose and the shock removed. Then you can cycle the suspension up and down, and the instruments will record it. You need to have a good relationship with your tech to watch over his shoulder.And it will cost extra. Everything is extra these days.
You may not like where the window puts your ride height. Your car may end up lower than you might have liked. Do not be tempted to crank it back up, cuz that will mess up the new alignment. Different profile tires may be the answer.
 
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Lots of stupidness here.

Only three main things will cause drifting and wandering. Not enough toe in, not enough caster, or worn parts.

"Do you have a sway bar?" Seriously? Change the gear box? Unbelievable.

Check the front end parts. If they are all good, see a reputable alignment shop.
 
-Or a too-tight sector shaft adjustment. While this is not technically wander, it feels like it, cuz the car steers in the last direction you pointed it. When the car runs out of lane, you have to correct. And then it steers the other way until it runs outta lane, and then you correct it. And then it steers back........ horribly annoying. Just horrible. Horrible enough to strip off your Sunday-going-to-church shirt and doing something about it on the side of the hiway.
Or,Tires worn conically. This will do it too, cuz the steering system may have enough flex in it, not to be able to control the ever-changing toe-in. The tires are always trying to climb up on something. If the road surface was to be dead flat,the tires would have nothing to climb. There is no such road in Manitoba.
 
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Sir, you need a decent alignment, you will probably have to provide the specs to the shop. all the good Mopar alignment techs are retired or dead.
 
Rusty and AJ have it right.

If you took the car to a major chain alignment shop it's aligned to factory specs, which are garbage. You need almost exactly the opposite of what the factory called for, because the factory specs are for bias ply tires. Radials should have negative camber and positive caster. Specs vary a bit depending on application, but if you can get -.5* camber, +3* caster (or more if possible) and 1/16 to 1/8" toe in you'd have a good start.

Wandering is usually toe, caster, or tire wear. Wiped out tie rod ends or suspension bushings can do it too. Sway bars won't help at all for wandering. A worn out steering box can make wandering feel worse, but it's not the cause.
 
72bluNblu said:
Rusty and AJ have it right.

If you took the car to a major chain alignment shop it's aligned to factory specs, which are garbage. You need almost exactly the opposite of what the factory called for, because the factory specs are for bias ply tires. Radials should have negative camber and positive caster. Specs vary a bit depending on application, but if you can get -.5* camber, +3* caster (or more if possible) and 1/16 to 1/8" toe in you'd have a good start.

Wandering is usually toe, caster, or tire wear. Wiped out tie rod ends or suspension bushings can do it too. Sway bars won't help at all for wandering. A worn out steering box can make wandering feel worse, but it's not the cause.
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Im guessing post 14 didnt mention any of that at all.....
 
My front end would get kinda squirrely under hard acceleration, when all the weight was down on the rear and the front end was up. Front end parts were new except control arm bushings, and strut rod bushings. I would have to drive it again the make sure I fixed it, as those parts were replaced when I tore the car down. car is off the road now for paint.
 
That would be camber change with the falling LCA, And the camber change sucked the toe pattern outta whack, When the toe goes,squirrely comes.
This is sometimes called bump-steer, but in your case is actually a toe-pattern issue.
It took me about a day to pattern it on my S, and fix it. I was working as an alignment tech at the time, and had unlimited after-hour use of the rack, so it cost me just time.
The offset UCA bushings make it worse, but the extra caster is so worth it. Ride height also monkeys with it.
It is better to have large diameter tires on the front, and level LCAs, than to have small diameter tires and a jacked up LCA. This is for straightline action.
A street alignment would be a lil different, cuz there's a lot of turning involved.
With turning and body-roll, different again.
You can have one alignment sorta do it all, sorta, but that toe-pattern has to be optimized.
Bad LCA bushings will make it worse too. Strut bushings not so much,unless one is good and the other is bad.
If you have alignment gauges you can map this in your garage. But it will be tough,for sure. It is waaay easier on the alignment rack, where you can instantly see toe changes.
 
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72bluNblu said:
Rusty and AJ have it right.

If you took the car to a major chain alignment shop it's aligned to factory specs, which are garbage. You need almost exactly the opposite of what the factory called for, because the factory specs are for bias ply tires. Radials should have negative camber and positive caster. Specs vary a bit depending on application, but if you can get -.5* camber, +3* caster (or more if possible) and 1/16 to 1/8" toe in you'd have a good start.

Wandering is usually toe, caster, or tire wear. Wiped out tie rod ends or suspension bushings can do it too. Sway bars won't help at all for wandering. A worn out steering box can make wandering feel worse, but it's not the cause.
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I would recommend a good reputable shop with an "old head " tech. No offense to any young guys, but you cant find many techs that know how to align these cars, anything more than toe set and they are lost. I had my 1997 Mercury Sable in and they didn't set the back wheel toe, told me it needed kits. I went out and showed him where the adjusters were, he said. were closing now. They never did set the back, and bulshitted me with a discount when I called them out on it. That was at a Firestone store.
 
Dartswinger70 said:
I would recommend a good reputable shop with an "old head " tech. No offense to any young guys, but you cant find many techs that know how to align these cars, anything more than toe set and they are lost. I had my 1997 Mercury Sable in and they didn't set the back wheel toe, told me it needed kits. I went out and showed him where the adjusters were, he said. were closing now. They never did set the back, and bulshitted me with a discount when I called them out on it. That was at a Firestone store.
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The biggest problem is that the larger chain tire/alignment shops will generally ONLY use the factory settings for a given car that are programmed into their computer. It's a liability thing for them, they aren't in the business of doing custom alignments. You can try explaining to them that the factory specs on these cars are for bias ply's, but good luck. Most of the techs probably don't even remember when bias ply tires were used on cars. I managed to talk a Les Schwab into using my alignment specs because I had a fully aftermarket suspension set up and gave them the specs from Hotchkis, but even then they wouldn't warranty it.

All reasons why I bought my own set of turn plates to do front end alignments. I just do the alignments myself now, much easier. I will take it to the local alignment shop and have it put on the rack to check my numbers and to give me the rear thrust angle so I can correct it if need be, but that's it, I just have them do a check.
 
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