Desperately need experienced opinions on Engine Identification

-

thecatsfan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2019
Messages
57
Reaction score
40
Location
Loveland, Colorado
Okay, I have been scouring the fum here and the Internet in general, but I want second opinions on cast numbers for a 273 engine. This engine is 1,000 miles away, but I have a deal with the seller, and a relative is willing to pick it up tomorrow, so I have to figure out tonight if the engine is real or not.

The seller listed it as a complete 1967 273 Commando engine, plus transmission. He said he personally pulled it from a 1967 Formula S that he owns. Today he sent me pictures of the block and manifold casting numbers and they do not match. The block numbers are 2465330 (the rest is not visible), and 12-11-64. The manifold number is 2536563.

From my research this is a 1965 block with a 1966-1967 Manifold. I do not have any head numbers or other markings. I was told that the 66-67 manifold will not fit on the 65 block. I know it can be machined to fit, but it cannot fit without modification. I also heard that some parts from prior years could be remachined to build new engines in future years, but as old as this block is it seams very unlikely the block itself would have still been waiting to be built when the 1966 manifolds were in use. Also, the pictures show what appears to be 1967 valve covers instead of 1965.

I am afraid this is a Frankenstein motor where somebody has modified a 67 manifold to fit on a 65 block - perhaps to make it look like a Commando when it was a factory 2 bbl car.

Any opinions here? I basically have until tomorrow to decide if I am buying this engine and taking the risk that it is not the engine I was told it is.

67061816_879136342448764_3701868059435204608_n.jpg
67296471_705766859874855_3953698652177825792_n.jpg
67415449_404161290443071_6239287712315080704_n.jpg
s-l500 (1).jpg
s-l500.jpg
 
64 block with 67 heads, thats all it takes. The head is the base for the intake, and any year head will fit any LA.
 
It cant be drilled to bolt to a 64-65 head because the bolt angles are wrong and would not seat against the manifold as the angle is more vertical. Yes, a late 64 (or anything past like June (?) is considered a 65 model block although the block did not change at all between those years and pretty much through 69. The pistons made the 4bbl version along with a hotter camshaft, that's about the only difference in the short blocks. heads were the same, intake was a 4bbl as opposed to a 2
 
OK I found this chart. These heads I have must be the 2658920--- 318 head


LA Small-Block Mopar Cylinder Head Casting Numbers

2268341 – 1962-1967, 318 LA-series small-block, 1.84/1.56 valves

2465315 – 1964-1965, 273 LA-series small-block, 1.78/1.50 valves

2532080 – 1964-1965, 273 LA-series small-block, 1.78/1.50 valves

2536178 – 1966, 273 LA-series small-block,1.78/1.50 valves, early

2658234 – 1966, 273 LA-series small-block,1.78/1.50 valves, late

2658920 – 1967, 273 LA-series small-block, 1.88/1.50 valves
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
2658920 – 1967, 318 LA-series small-block, 1.78/1.50 valves
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
2658234 – 1967, 318 LA-series small-block, 1.78/1.50 valves

2843675 – 1967, 318 LA-series small-block, 1.78/1.50 valves

2843675 – 1968-1969, 273 LA-series small-block, 1.78/1.50 valves
 
It cant be drilled to bolt to a 64-65 head because the bolt angles are wrong and would not seat against the manifold as the angle is more vertical.
It cant be drilled to bolt to a 64-65 head because the bolt angles are wrong and would not seat against the manifold as the angle is more vertical. Yes, a late 64 (or anything past like June (?) is considered a 65 model block although the block did not change at all between those years and pretty much through 69. The pistons made the 4bbl version along with a hotter camshaft, that's about the only difference in the short blocks. heads were the same, intake was a 4bbl as opposed to a 2
Yes, I understand the block did not change. But the model year is critical because if it is a 1964 model year, it cannot be a Commando engine. At this point, the only way to know if it is a Commando is to look at the pistons I guess - which will be impossible for me.
 
OK I found this chart. These heads I have must be the 2658920--- 318 head


LA Small-Block Mopar Cylinder Head Casting Numbers

2268341 – 1962-1967, 318 LA-series small-block, 1.84/1.56 valves

2465315 – 1964-1965, 273 LA-series small-block, 1.78/1.50 valves

2532080 – 1964-1965, 273 LA-series small-block, 1.78/1.50 valves

2536178 – 1966, 273 LA-series small-block,1.78/1.50 valves, early

2658234 – 1966, 273 LA-series small-block,1.78/1.50 valves, late

2658920 – 1967, 273 LA-series small-block, 1.88/1.50 valves
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
2658920 – 1967, 318 LA-series small-block, 1.78/1.50 valves
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
2658234 – 1967, 318 LA-series small-block, 1.78/1.50 valves

2843675 – 1967, 318 LA-series small-block, 1.78/1.50 valves

2843675 – 1968-1969, 273 LA-series small-block, 1.78/1.50 valves
Thanks, but I have no way to check what the head numbers are, so I have to decide whether I am buying this driveline without that information.
 
Block casting is at the end of 64. I've owned 340 blocks cast in 1971 with a 73 stamped VIN. But seeing as how this 273 is 52 years old, it could have been replaced. I buy and pay for what I can see. If it's cheap enough, go for it.
 
2658920 – 1967, 273 LA-series small-block, 1.88/1.50 valves

IMHO this is a misprint and has been around forever. Nowhere can I find a reference to a stock 1.88 valve in a 67 273.

If you can shine a flashlight into the spark plug hole and see 4 valve reliefs (you may be able to see the 2 facing each other) you got a 2bbl. The 4 bbl pistons had only 2 reliefs on the valve side. May be impossible but a Depstech USB borescope is like $20 on amazon. Here is my 2bbl 273 through the spark plug hole. notice center stamp and universal reliefs
piston.jpg
 
Last edited:
The only real way to see if its a Commando engine is by viewing the piston tops. If they are "pop-up" style with 2 valve reliefs and not flattop with 4 reliefs, then you have at least the hi comp pistons. You'll have to take measure the cam to confirm Commando grind or not. The intake/cylinder head mating surface is the same thoughout the 273 years...only the bolt angle and size are different, early to late 273. A late intake will bolt to the early heads if the intake bolt holes are wallered out a bit. Casting numbers will determine if you have early or late heads. A late 64 casting number will be a '65 model year engine, Commando or not.
 
The only real way to see if its a Commando engine is by viewing the piston tops. If they are "pop-up" style with 2 valve reliefs and not flattop with 4 reliefs, then you have at least the hi comp pistons. You'll have to take measure the cam to confirm Commando grind or not. The intake/cylinder head mating surface is the same thoughout the 273 years...only the bolt angle and size are different, early to late 273. A late intake will bolt to the early heads if the intake bolt holes are wallered out a bit. Casting numbers will determine if you have early or late heads. A late 64 casting number will be a '65 model year engine, Commando or not.

That's exactly what I had read - that 67 intakes could have the bolt holes drilled out to allow the bolts to go through at the off angle. So there is no way to assume which heads are on it or which base power plant it is.
 
That's exactly what I had read - that 67 intakes could have the bolt holes drilled out to allow the bolts to go through at the off angle. So there is no way to assume which heads are on it or which base power plant it is.
Pull the valve covers and find the head casting numbers...that will determine early or late heads. 2bbl and 4bbl 273's share everything EXCEPT pistons, cam, dual point distributor, valve covers, carb, and 4bbl intake. Swapping those parts makes a 2bbl engine into a 4bbl engine.
 
Smells fishy to me. 64 date code and commando? Red flag. Why did he pull this "original " engine from his Formula S? Seems odd to me.
If it was a couple hundred bucks max! At least get that much for valve covers if need be lol. You're correct those are 67 commando vc's...another red flag..
 
An awful lot of $$ swapping to go from non commando to commando.
Pull the valve covers and find the head casting numbers...that will determine early or late heads. 2bbl and 4bbl 273's share everything EXCEPT pistons, cam, dual point distributor, valve covers, carb, and 4bbl intake. Swapping those parts makes a 2bbl engine into a 4bbl engine.
 
Last edited:
see my borescope pic added to #10

These are 4bbl pistons, notice 2 eyebrows almost touching only and quench lines.
pb220003-jpg.jpg
 
Well, if you can get him to send you a pic of the assembly stamp on the front of the block on the drivers side just under the head, it would tell you the year and day of assembly, and the size of the motor. That would help narrow down whether it’s from a 67 car or not. It’s possible this engine languished in the factory and was assembled for a 67, highly unlikely, but possible.
 
Thanks, but I have no way to check what the head numbers are, so I have to decide whether I am buying this driveline without that information.
If the guy won't pull the valve covers to show you the head casting numbers, I would tell him to go have airiel intercourse with a motivated pastry.
 
Guys, I really appreciate all the advice. But the engine is 1K miles away and I have no way of looking inside the engine to verify the pistons. Basically, I have to make a decision on the information I have. My guess is at some point, somebody swapped a 67 top end onto a 65 bottom end. Maybe the Formula S had a bottom end failure at one point and somebody swapped in a junkyard bottom end, but put the top end back on since it had the better heads and intake. Think I will probably pass on this assembly. Too many red flags. Back to looking for a power plant for this poor car.
badassrubicon.jpg
 
If the guy won't pull the valve covers to show you the head casting numbers, I would tell him to go have airiel intercourse with a motivated pastry.

Yeah, even worse, even if they are the right heads, I have no idea what the bottom end is. I suspect the bottom end is not a Commando engine at all. He advertised this as a complete original 1967 Commando 273 out of a Formula S Cuda. It clearly is not what he advertised. Head numbers will not tell me what pistons and cam are in the block. And either way, it is a Frankenstein assembly which I think I should walk away from.
 
Okay, I have been scouring the fum here and the Internet in general, but I want second opinions on cast numbers for a 273 engine. This engine is 1,000 miles away, but I have a deal with the seller, and a relative is willing to pick it up tomorrow, so I have to figure out tonight if the engine is real or not.

The seller listed it as a complete 1967 273 Commando engine, plus transmission. He said he personally pulled it from a 1967 Formula S that he owns. Today he sent me pictures of the block and manifold casting numbers and they do not match. The block numbers are 2465330 (the rest is not visible), and 12-11-64. The manifold number is 2536563.

From my research this is a 1965 block with a 1966-1967 Manifold. I do not have any head numbers or other markings. I was told that the 66-67 manifold will not fit on the 65 block. I know it can be machined to fit, but it cannot fit without modification. I also heard that some parts from prior years could be remachined to build new engines in future years, but as old as this block is it seams very unlikely the block itself would have still been waiting to be built when the 1966 manifolds were in use. Also, the pictures show what appears to be 1967 valve covers instead of 1965.

I am afraid this is a Frankenstein motor where somebody has modified a 67 manifold to fit on a 65 block - perhaps to make it look like a Commando when it was a factory 2 bbl car.

Any opinions here? I basically have until tomorrow to decide if I am buying this engine and taking the risk that it is not the engine I was told it is.

View attachment 1715365912 View attachment 1715365913 View attachment 1715365914 View attachment 1715365915 View attachment 1715365916
intake bolt angle is the difference. could be a '65 block with '66 up heads and intake??
only way to know its a Commando bottom end is pull a head and look for the High Compression pistons..
 
Yeah, even worse, even if they are the right heads, I have no idea what the bottom end is. I suspect the bottom end is not a Commando engine at all. He advertised this as a complete original 1967 Commando 273 out of a Formula S Cuda. It clearly is not what he advertised. Head numbers will not tell me what pistons and cam are in the block. And either way, it is a Frankenstein assembly which I think I should walk away from.

Seems like a lot of trouble to go through for a 273, I'm guessing you're trying to restore your Barracuda with original close-to-matching parts? I'd personally just put in a 318 and dress it up to look like a 273 Commando but I'm far from a "resto" guy, I just wanna go fast lol.
 
Seems like a lot of trouble to go through for a 273, I'm guessing you're trying to restore your Barracuda with original close-to-matching parts? I'd personally just put in a 318 and dress it up to look like a 273 Commando but I'm far from a "resto" guy, I just wanna go fast lol.

I totally understand your perspective. If it were my car, I would be looking to drop in a 340 or 360 at minimum. But the car belongs to my sister. She bought it in 1977 when she was 17 years old and has owned it ever since. She understands it will never be a numbers matching car, but she would prefer to keep it close to original. She has had family friends and relatives promise to get the car back on the road for the last 15 years. Her husband recently had the car repainted so the body looks perfect, but he did not understand the already swapped 318 in it was in rough shape.

My role is I am trying to get this car in running condition again and do a major favor for my sister. Too many people have made promises and not followed through. I know a 273 would make her happy.
 
-
Back
Top