A body suspension feel???

-

ACME SS

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2022
Messages
599
Reaction score
716
Location
Emmett, Idaho
Back in the late 70's my family had nothing but A bodies with slant 6's. My father would not allow anything with 8 cylinders in the household. I drove a 67, 69, 71, and 74 Dart. My last drive would have been in 82. I know those cars drove differently than "newer" cars but I can't recall the feel.

Flash forward through a sea of macpherson strut/rack and pinion cars and I'm just not sure what "normal" is for my 71 Demon. I'm hesitant to describe what it felt like because it may be completely normal. Up to 55 I didn't have an issue with the feel but the speed limit here is 65 on this highway and there was a pretty good gust hitting me at an angle. It was a little unsettling is all I will say for now.
What should that feel like if everything is set up OK?
Jerry
 
My Duster now steers like a newer car since a full suspension rebuild and alignment using updated specs. When I got the car is wandered all over the place, due to steering coupler play, worn out bushings and stock alignment specs which are for bias ply tires.
 
When all is correct, these cars actually drive pretty nice.
That said, they're fifty years old now... First and foremost, make sure everything is in good condition: ball joints, tie rod ends, control arm bushings, idler and pitman arms, strut rod bushings... you get the idea.
Next is your alignment. Slant 6 cars with 78 series bias ply tires aren't set up the same as what you need for modern, possibly substantially wider radial tires- this opens up a whole host of weird tracking issues among other things. Go to a good alignment shop and follow the SKOSH chart on this site.
Following the SKOSH chart - your experiences? | For A Bodies Only Mopar Forum
Next, do you have power steering? Chrysler tended to over pump their steering, sometimes making them feel "light" and "floaty". This gets amplified in the light A bodies. The solution? Dial down the assist: Pump It Down....EASY | For A Bodies Only Mopar Forum
Once you're done with all the above, you'll be shocked at the difference just "optimizing" what you have makes.
 
You might want to send your PS box to Steer and Gear or Firm Feel and get their Stage III upgrade build, which is more like a modern car feel. With the suggestions mentioned by others, yiu should have a great handling car
 
Heavier torsion bars and leaf springs, better shocks, front sway bar, and modern alignment for radial tires with fresh front end will make the car feel great.
 
When all is correct, these cars actually drive pretty nice.
That said, they're fifty years old now... First and foremost, make sure everything is in good condition: ball joints, tie rod ends, control arm bushings, idler and pitman arms, strut rod bushings... you get the idea.
Next is your alignment. Slant 6 cars with 78 series bias ply tires aren't set up the same as what you need for modern, possibly substantially wider radial tires- this opens up a whole host of weird tracking issues among other things. Go to a good alignment shop and follow the SKOSH chart on this site.
Following the SKOSH chart - your experiences? | For A Bodies Only Mopar Forum
Next, do you have power steering? Chrysler tended to over pump their steering, sometimes making them feel "light" and "floaty". This gets amplified in the light A bodies. The solution? Dial down the assist: Pump It Down....EASY | For A Bodies Only Mopar Forum
Once you're done with all the above, you'll be shocked at the difference just "optimizing" what you have makes.
Great post. Thank you.
Yep I have either replaced or checked all the front steering and suspension and all parts are good.

Yes, I have power steering an you nailed it. It feels light and floaty...EXACTLY! I have modified GM PS pumps for Ford mustang rack and pinions before so I am familiar with this. Thank you for the link to that. I didn't want to lead the discussion down any one path but you hit it. At 65 mph I was deathly afraid of bumping the wheel for fear of putting myself into a James Rockford maneuver.

And I do need to re-check the alignment. I did an alignment using the SKOSH chart during the rebuild however...because my tires are so tall you can't get your hands between the tires and fender to make adjustments. So I kind of faked it by hanging several buckets of water off the bumper brackets to simulate the sheetmetal weight. It's probably all wrong. It's funny cause I can still remember adjusting the eccentrics on my first Demon back in high school and I'm pretty sure I could see everything over the tire.
Jerry
 
Heavier torsion bars and leaf springs, better shocks, front sway bar, and modern alignment for radial tires with fresh front end will make the car feel great.
So...my 71 does not have either front or rear sway bars. Were they standard on newer models or is there an aftermarket kit to add them? Besides the power steering feeling way to responsive, I was thinking they would help too.
 
You might want to send your PS box to Steer and Gear or Firm Feel and get their Stage III upgrade build, which is more like a modern car feel. With the suggestions mentioned by others, yiu should have a great handling car

Hey this is a great tip too. While I have no slop, I do have what feels like a dead spot in the center so as you are flying down the highway and you wish it to go a little left, it requires more left in the center than it should, then the pressure is too high and it over corrects. This is all coming together now.
You know, you guys remind me of the guys on the Factory Five Racing forum...they were good at spending my money too LOL

So I've come up with a plan based on everyone's input. I'm going to reduce the pressure of the pump (free plus fluid). Then I'm going to reinforce the K member.
I've also put myself on the list with Firm Feel to have my steering box rebuilt because of the dead center condition I believe I have. They are 14-15 weeks out now so he said you can put yourself on the list and they will call you when they are ready and then you send yours in if you want yours returned. Otherwise, order now and they send you one and then you return yours as a core.

Thanks, Jerry
 
Last edited:
Front sway bar came standard on the hi-performance models. I'd put one on it. Radial tires with the correct alignment settings goes a long way to improving handling. Do not use the factory alignment specs (for bias tires only).
 
You got stock-height front tires on zero-offset wheels, on that Demon?
If not, yur in for exciting times.

No it does not but could you please elaborate further? I'm not sure what the diameter or the backspacing would have to do with caster, camber, and toe? Nothing I own has stock wheels and I've never had an issue related to this but I have an open mind and want to learn.
 
Look up scrub radius.
Your alignment specs are for; straight ahead only, and at the factory specified ride height only. At all other conditions, the alignment is GONE.
If the camber changes, then the toe-in changes automatically.
If the toes changes, then the camber changes automatically.
If the suspension height changes, then Both the camber and the toe change.... automatically.
With a non stock scrub-radius in the mix, that just throws a bigger monkey wrench into the game.

You asked;
Up to 55 I didn't have an issue with the feel but the speed limit here is 65 on this highway and there was a pretty good gust hitting me at an angle. It was a little unsettling is all I will say for now.
What should that feel like if everything is set up OK?

It should feel rock solid, with no hunting, no wandering, and little to no sensitivity to moderate crosswinds whatsoever.
The Power-steerings are usually a lil over-boosted, but that just affects your perception. The reaction springs are just too soft. The honking big steering wheels usually relax that feeling. The Steering box has a slow spot on center, such that the steering is supposed to be less sensitive there, that is to say, you have to turn the steering-wheel more to get anything to happen at the tire. This is normal and makes straight-line cruising more relaxing, they say.

If crosswinds are bothering your car, and the tires are at a reasonable and balanced pressures, then you can bet the camber and toe are changing with every gust, causing the car to self-steer; this is NOT normal unless; 1) your front shocks are wore out and/or 2) you are running Slanty T-bars with a V8, and/or 3) your rear suspension is swaying about, usually due to one or more of; too high, too soft, or the bushings are shot, one or both of the shocks are shot or yur tire-pressures are very low.
A crappy scrub-radius cannot be compensated for by any alignment changes. It can be affected, but not cured. I know because I used to be an alignment tech, and on my car I tried everything, to use a set of nice offset front wheels I had. In the end, I went back to Zero-offset wheels and the correct height tires, which brought the scrub-radius back to being tolerable.
If your scrub radius is too far off, the tires will want to climb up every elevation-change in the road. The tires will exploit every looseness in the steering and you will be chasing after the wander from one side of the road to the other. As you are doing that the over-boosted steering will drive you crazy. You will crank up the tire pressure ever higher to get the edges of the tires up off the road which on a flat concrete road will feel great. Then on an asphalt road, there it is again......
Ok so those were MY problems. I fixed them one by one. But I won't tell you how many times my car was on the rack, lol. If I would have had to pay for that, it woulddabin a lotta, lotta money.
I wish you better luck.
 
Last edited:
When all is correct, these cars actually drive pretty nice.
That said, they're fifty years old now... First and foremost, make sure everything is in good condition: ball joints, tie rod ends, control arm bushings, idler and pitman arms, strut rod bushings... you get the idea.
Next is your alignment. Slant 6 cars with 78 series bias ply tires aren't set up the same as what you need for modern, possibly substantially wider radial tires- this opens up a whole host of weird tracking issues among other things. Go to a good alignment shop and follow the SKOSH chart on this site.
Following the SKOSH chart - your experiences? | For A Bodies Only Mopar Forum
Next, do you have power steering? Chrysler tended to over pump their steering, sometimes making them feel "light" and "floaty". This gets amplified in the light A bodies. The solution? Dial down the assist: Pump It Down....EASY | For A Bodies Only Mopar Forum
Once you're done with all the above, you'll be shocked at the difference just "optimizing" what you have makes.
I agree that when all is done, they drive pretty well, but a 50 year old car will never drive as nicely as a modern car with modern suspension and rack and pinion steering. As long as you accept this, you will be fine. I know some will disagree with this, but you can't argue that modern rack and pinion steering will give a better drive and feel than 50 year old recirculating ball technology. Rebuild your suspension and do all you can to get it as good as possible and be happy with that.
 
All worm and ball style steering gears have a small on center dead spot, that’s part of the design. But it should be pretty small as long as the box isn’t worn out and it’s adjusted properly. Worn out steering and suspension parts will also make that feel worse.

If a “gust of wind” is unsettling the car, the most likely culprit is the caster setting. Radial tires need positive caster, and with power steering you want as much as you can get with these cars. If you have stock UCA’s and UCA bushings even the max you can get won’t be very much. Stock arms with the Moog K7103 bushings will be better, but you’ll still probably max out around +3.5*’s of caster. And that’s still not very much.

Toe in could also play a part, if you don’t have any toe in, or if you have some toe out, the car can feel like it wants to dart around.
 
But I won't tell you how many times my car was on the rack, lol.

Yeah, my next step is to check the alignment again and see where it actually is now. I had it set up per the skosh chart when I was restoring it but that was a little cheesy cause the front sheet metal was not installed. I had estimated the weight of the parts that were missing and placed weights in strategic locations but it was a guess.

I did not buy the wheels that it has so I will need to look at them to see what the backspacing is and how it compares to stock. Thanks for responding to my question, it all makes sense.

Jerry
 
Since I last posted, I rechecked the alignment and everything was per the skosh performance street numbers (2.5 caster, -.75 camber with 1/8" toe in). If I recall, the eccentrics were at the maximum range at these settings so there is no more caster available. It is what it is.

The only change I made was that I installed a Hellwig 5906 front sway bar and the car handles ....almost.. like a new car. I think the steering gear could use a rebuild and I am on the waiting list but this is like night and day from before. So the car was originally a slat 6 but now has a 318. I'm not sure if the torsion bars were different between 6 and 8 cylinder cars but the sway bar made a HUGE difference. I don't think 6 cylinder cars came with a sway bar, or at least this one did not have one. I may put one in the rear down the road but for now I'm happy.

I see some people have issues with another brand but the Hellwig bolted right up. All I had to do was enlarge the stock holes for the 3/8 bolts as they never had a bolt in them. Had it out on the highway doing 70mph and it was comfortable for once.
 
Since I last posted, I rechecked the alignment and everything was per the skosh performance street numbers (2.5 caster, -.75 camber with 1/8" toe in). If I recall, the eccentrics were at the maximum range at these settings so there is no more caster available. It is what it is.

The only change I made was that I installed a Hellwig 5906 front sway bar and the car handles ....almost.. like a new car. I think the steering gear could use a rebuild and I am on the waiting list but this is like night and day from before. So the car was originally a slat 6 but now has a 318. I'm not sure if the torsion bars were different between 6 and 8 cylinder cars but the sway bar made a HUGE difference. I don't think 6 cylinder cars came with a sway bar, or at least this one did not have one. I may put one in the rear down the road but for now I'm happy.

I see some people have issues with another brand but the Hellwig bolted right up. All I had to do was enlarge the stock holes for the 3/8 bolts as they never had a bolt in them. Had it out on the highway doing 70mph and it was comfortable for once.

Not too surprising that you’re maxed out at +2.5* of caster, probably stock UCA’s and bushings. So that was the alignment as it was before?

/6 cars did come with smaller torsion bars than the v8 cars did. And even the V8 bars were too small, especially once you add radial tires. Now I wouldn’t recommend anything smaller than 1” torsion bars. PST makes some nice 1.03’s, they’re a forum sponsor.

Have you checked the condition of your suspension bushings, ball joints, tie rod ends etc?
 
*Sorry a bit long*
Here's a list of what I've done thus far, Keep in mind it does get expensive especially if you're buying it all outright. I bought pieces here and there over a period of 4-5 years. After doing all of this, the handling has improved significantly. I daily drive my duster like crazy, I even drive it long distances over 500 miles quite often. The squishy ride is gone for the most part, it now feels solid and responsive with good ride. I will say however that it does get floaty at 110 mph and at 120+ the front end starts to feel like its disconnected with the road. (yes I have gotten it up to 127, then I backed off.) This has more to do with aerodynamics. *Look up chin spoilers on this forum.* (one of my next endeavors).
I also have 17 inch W rated tires (168 mph).
- QA1 adjustable strut bars: QA1 52311 QA1 Dynamic Adjustable Strut Bars | Summit Racing
- QA1's upper control arms: QA1 52301 QA1 Mopar Control Arms | Summit Racing
- QA1's tubular K-member: QA1 52313 QA1 Mopar K-Members | Summit Racing
- QA1's B & C-body Tie-rod sleeves: QA1 52325 QA1 Heavy-Duty Tie Rod Sleeves | Summit Racing
- Pro-Forged B & C-body Tie-rod ends : Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10268 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing, Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10289 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing.
- Pro-Forged Lower ball joints: Driver side: Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10129 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing, pass. side: Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10128 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
- QA1's Sway bar: QA1 52861 QA1 Sway Bars | Summit Racing
- P-S-T's 1.03 inch torsion: 1.03" Torsion Bar - A Body.
- Still using stock lower control arms but with welded reinforcement.
- QA1 front shocks: QA1 TS501 QA1 Stocker Star Shocks | Summit Racing
Also since the K-member was for a 72 below A-body I had to ditch the 73+ motor spool mounts and go with: Poly-Loc Mount Set or Mancini Engine Replacement Rubber Motor Mount. You can also use: Moroso Solid Steel Motor Mounts *Fair warning, these will transmit engine vibes like crazy.*
Also, Poly Urethane bushing kits are a good option: Energy Suspension 5.18104G Energy Suspension Hyperflex Bushing Kits | Summit Racing

Sadly however my rear suspension is still stock. There are future plans with new springs, 8 3/4 upgrades with rear disk brakes. etc.
 
Last edited:
Not too surprising that you’re maxed out at +2.5* of caster, probably stock UCA’s and bushings. So that was the alignment as it was before?

/6 cars did come with smaller torsion bars than the v8 cars did. And even the V8 bars were too small, especially once you add radial tires. Now I wouldn’t recommend anything smaller than 1” torsion bars. PST makes some nice 1.03’s, they’re a forum sponsor.

Have you checked the condition of your suspension bushings, ball joints, tie rod ends etc?

Thanks for the torsion bar info, I'll look into that for sure. Mine measure out at .875 and appear to be original by the patina.

So when I purchased the car, the previous owner was perplexed by how it drove so bad so he took it to a quite well respected (by others...not me) tire shop in my area for a front alignment and to have new tie rod ends and some other parts installed. When I brought it home, I had let my son drive it as a treat to him. He reported that he thought he was going to die a few times. I then tore into the body work and when I had the front end removed and had access to the eccentrics (can't see yet alone reach over or around those silly 17" wheels the last guy put on it) that I would check the alignment.

I hung buckets of water on the front frame to simulate the weight of all the missing parts and aligned it with the hope it would be OK after assembly and the numbers did not change. My water trick worked as they are still the same as what I posted in my last post.

What I found originally when I did my "as found" from the tire store (besides finger tight tie rod ends) matched the paperwork I found in the glove box. They used the specs for a "Dodge/Ram/SRT/Demon and according to their document, and verified by my "Fastrax" alignment tool was:
Camber L -.6, R -.4 Caster L -.5 R 0.7 and total toe of .25. They were shooting for a target caster of 0.3-1.3 LOL! They used color ink and their camber on both sides was in red ink and the caster on the left was red too. They sent this guy away with 6/10 parameters red and charged him $238!

I honestly do not know the condition of the control arm bushings... that and heavier torsion bars are on my list to work on. My problem is that I'm a perfectionist and I have a bad habit of sinking too much money into things like this. I'm going to try to throttle myself and not go too crazy like buying QA1 stage 3 or something like that. I used to live a couple miles from QA1 and like their parts. I'll probably do a little at a time to spread it out.
 
*Sorry a bit long*
Here's a list of what I've done thus far, Keep in mind it does get expensive especially if you're buying it all outright. I bought pieces here and there over a period of 4-5 years. After doing all of this, the handling has improved significantly. I daily drive my duster like crazy, I even drive it long distances over 500 miles quite often. The squishy ride is gone for the most part, it now feels solid and responsive with good ride. I will say however that it does get floaty at 110 mph and at 120+ the front end starts to feel like its disconnected with the road. (yes I have gotten it up to 127, then I backed off.) This has more to do with aerodynamics. *Look up chin spoilers on this forum.* (one of my next endeavors).
I also have 17 inch W rated tires (168 mph).
- QA1 adjustable strut bars: QA1 52311 QA1 Dynamic Adjustable Strut Bars | Summit Racing
- QA1's upper control arms: QA1 52301 QA1 Mopar Control Arms | Summit Racing
- QA1's tubular K-member: QA1 52313 QA1 Mopar K-Members | Summit Racing
- QA1's B & C-body Tie-rod sleeves: QA1 52325 QA1 Heavy-Duty Tie Rod Sleeves | Summit Racing
- Pro-Forged B & C-body Tie-rod ends : Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10268 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing, Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10289 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing.
- Pro-Forged Lower ball joints: Driver side: Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10129 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing, pass. side: Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10128 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
- QA1's Sway bar: QA1 52861 QA1 Sway Bars | Summit Racing
- P-S-T's 1.03 inch torsion: 1.03" Torsion Bar - A Body.
- Still using stock lower control arms but with welded reinforcement.
- QA1 front shocks: QA1 TS501 QA1 Stocker Star Shocks | Summit Racing
Also since the K-member was for a 72 below A-body I had to ditch the 73+ motor spool mounts and go with: Poly-Loc Mount Set or Mancini Engine Replacement Rubber Motor Mount. You can also use: Moroso Solid Steel Motor Mounts *Fair warning, these will transmit engine vibes like crazy.*
Also, Poly Urethane bushing kits are a good option: Energy Suspension 5.18104G Energy Suspension Hyperflex Bushing Kits | Summit Racing

Sadly however my rear suspension is still stock. There are future plans with new springs, 8 3/4 upgrades with rear disk brakes. etc.
WOW! Thats some serious suspension work! I laughed out loud when you said it started to float at 120 MPH...too funny. My engine is a 318 and it is seriously wimpy...on my list is something bigger but in time. Fastest I have ever driven was 150mph in a Factory Five Racing Cobra that I built. It was on the straightaway on Brainerd International Speedway in northern Minnesota. They have the longest straightaway in the US. It was slowly climbing and I'm pretty sure it stopped at 150 due to the FAST EFI settings but I didn't think it would be prudent to play with the settings on the straight away LOL!

Thanks for sharing your parts you used. That took you some serious work to compile and I will definatel look at them.
 
-
Back
Top