michformulaS
Well-Known Member
I don't think a nice 1968 B body 383 car is worth twice as much as the 1968 340 A body today in the same condition. They seem to be worth about the same today as they were back then.
1968 '340' Barracuda vs 1968 '383' Road Runner
- Thread starter 69 Cuda 440
- Start date
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Hersbird,
You're missing the point.
The comparison is between the 1968 340 Barracuda and the 1968 383 Road Runner,
in a Heads Up Match Up.
In 1968, the 340 Barracuda dominated E/SA, and was one the top cars for E/S.
While the 383 Road Runner was pushed aside at the Track in either class.
Both cars fit into the E/S or E/SA {10.00 - 10.49 Wt/Hp} Bracket.
My point was, that the 383/335 HP engine was over-rated for Horsepower. Not
that it was a bad engine.
More to come,,,,,,,,,,,
You're missing the point.
The comparison is between the 1968 340 Barracuda and the 1968 383 Road Runner,
in a Heads Up Match Up.
In 1968, the 340 Barracuda dominated E/SA, and was one the top cars for E/S.
While the 383 Road Runner was pushed aside at the Track in either class.
Both cars fit into the E/S or E/SA {10.00 - 10.49 Wt/Hp} Bracket.
My point was, that the 383/335 HP engine was over-rated for Horsepower. Not
that it was a bad engine.
More to come,,,,,,,,,,,
VIOLENT\6
12 second N/A Slant 6?
If you look at Motor's repair manuals that span the time period when the automakers went from "gross HP" (a bare engine sans accessories on the dyno) to "net HP' ( the bare engine as it was installed in the car W/all the accessories, exhaust, etc on the dyno) you will notice something interesting.
"Gross HP" for the 340/440 (I know we are talking 383s here, but that's not the point) was 275HP/370HP respectively. A 95HP advantage for the 440.
"Net HP" for the 340/440 was 240HP/244HP respectively, only a 4 HP advantage for the 440 as it was installed in the cars..
The point I'm trying to make here is that the 340 was grossly underrated. A big reason for this was insuarnce rates.
I had a '70 340 swinger in 1972 & it was rated "V 8 standard transmission" just like if it had a 318/3 on the tree. My insusrance rates were a fraction of what I paid for my '68 442 & it was a slug compared to the 340 Swinger.
This was in Pennsylvania during the early '70s & in those days it was hard to get a car W/suspension changes of any kind inspected so most of the cars on the street were pretty close to stock.
I regularly spanked 383s 440s, 396s, 390HP 427, etc
The cars that gave me the most trouble were the 350 HP 327s in Chevy IIs & Vettes & of course other "A" body 340s.
My friend had a Dart GTS W/a 383 & I could smake him.
I doubt that a 383 had as much "net HP" as a 340 in those days.
Just my experience.
Sorry for the confusion. I was talking about 340 a-body cars. They were what we called "Giant Killers". And yes, the majority of the time, they beat the big block, mid size cars. Mopar-Ford-or GM.
my money is on the 383. I ran/run both, 383 wins, period!
In 1968, one of the cars we ran was a 68' 340-S Barracuda in E/SA at Dover Drag Strip,
and we never saw a 68' 383 Road Runner win that class, ever.
And that Class was always loaded with cars every Sunday.
Same thing in 1969, in F/SA.
The 340 A-Body cars were running 13.10's and the 383 Road Runner and Super Bee's were
stuck in the 13.50's.
We never lost to a 383 B-Body car.
and we never saw a 68' 383 Road Runner win that class, ever.
And that Class was always loaded with cars every Sunday.
Same thing in 1969, in F/SA.
The 340 A-Body cars were running 13.10's and the 383 Road Runner and Super Bee's were
stuck in the 13.50's.
We never lost to a 383 B-Body car.
Hersbird
Well-Known Member
Not just any nice 383 b body prce wise, but specifically a 68 roadrunner.
383 'The Numbers'
1967 383
325 HP @ 4800 RPM
425 Ft/Lbs of Torque @ 2800 RPM
10.0 -1 Compression
Piston @ .014 Below Deck
Camshaft
.425/.437 Lift ~ 256*/260* Duration ~ 32* Overlap
Valve Springs = #134 lbs. Valve Closed / #208 lbs. Valve Open
Cylinder Heads
#2406516
2.08" Intake / 1.60" Exhaust
Combustion Chamber (Closed) = 73.5 CC's
Intake Manifold
#2205968
Low-Riser Dual-Plane
Bore Holes = 1 7/16" Primary / 1 9/16" Secondary
Carburetor
Carter AFB
1 7/16" Primary ~ 1 9/16" Secondary
575 CFM
Exhaust Manifolds
2.25" Header Outlet Opening
Style - Down-Angle w/Short Header
Exhaust Piping = 2.25" Primary/ 1.88" Secondary
------------------------------------------------------------
1968 '383' Road Runner
335 HP @ 5200 RPM
425 Ft/Lbs of Torque @ 3200 RPM
10.0-1 Compression
Piston @ .021 Above Deck
Camshaft
.450/.458 Lift ~ 268*/284" Duration ~ 46* Overlap
Valve Springs = #129 lbs. Valve Closed /#250 lbs. Valve Open
Cylinder Heads
#2843906
2.08" Intake / 1.74" Exhaust
Combustion Chamber (Open) 79.5 CC's
Intake Manifold
#280631
Low-Medium Riser Dual-Plane
Bore Holes = 1 11/16" Square-Bore Carburetor Base
Carburetor
Carter AVS
1 7/16" Primary / 1 11/16" Secondary
625 CFM
Exhaust Manifolds
2.25" Header Outlet Opening
Style - Wind-Swept w/Extended Header-type Passages
Exhaust Piping = 2.25" Primary / 2.25" Secondary
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note; According to Chrysler, the 1968 383/335 HP Road Runner Engine put out only +10 Horsepower over
the 1967 383/325 HP Engine.
1967 383
325 HP @ 4800 RPM
425 Ft/Lbs of Torque @ 2800 RPM
10.0 -1 Compression
Piston @ .014 Below Deck
Camshaft
.425/.437 Lift ~ 256*/260* Duration ~ 32* Overlap
Valve Springs = #134 lbs. Valve Closed / #208 lbs. Valve Open
Cylinder Heads
#2406516
2.08" Intake / 1.60" Exhaust
Combustion Chamber (Closed) = 73.5 CC's
Intake Manifold
#2205968
Low-Riser Dual-Plane
Bore Holes = 1 7/16" Primary / 1 9/16" Secondary
Carburetor
Carter AFB
1 7/16" Primary ~ 1 9/16" Secondary
575 CFM
Exhaust Manifolds
2.25" Header Outlet Opening
Style - Down-Angle w/Short Header
Exhaust Piping = 2.25" Primary/ 1.88" Secondary
------------------------------------------------------------
1968 '383' Road Runner
335 HP @ 5200 RPM
425 Ft/Lbs of Torque @ 3200 RPM
10.0-1 Compression
Piston @ .021 Above Deck
Camshaft
.450/.458 Lift ~ 268*/284" Duration ~ 46* Overlap
Valve Springs = #129 lbs. Valve Closed /#250 lbs. Valve Open
Cylinder Heads
#2843906
2.08" Intake / 1.74" Exhaust
Combustion Chamber (Open) 79.5 CC's
Intake Manifold
#280631
Low-Medium Riser Dual-Plane
Bore Holes = 1 11/16" Square-Bore Carburetor Base
Carburetor
Carter AVS
1 7/16" Primary / 1 11/16" Secondary
625 CFM
Exhaust Manifolds
2.25" Header Outlet Opening
Style - Wind-Swept w/Extended Header-type Passages
Exhaust Piping = 2.25" Primary / 2.25" Secondary
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note; According to Chrysler, the 1968 383/335 HP Road Runner Engine put out only +10 Horsepower over
the 1967 383/325 HP Engine.
Rico,
The 'first' 383 Road Runner Marketing Advertisement
Hot Rod Magazine (September 1967)
Camshaft Specifications
Lift ........ .450" Intake / .465" Exhaust
Duration... 276* Intake / 292* Exhaust
Overlap..... 54*
This was supposed to be the 'Special Road Runner Camshaft', which was slightly
different than the 440/375 HiPo Camshaft.
The 'first' 383 Road Runner Marketing Advertisement
Hot Rod Magazine (September 1967)
Camshaft Specifications
Lift ........ .450" Intake / .465" Exhaust
Duration... 276* Intake / 292* Exhaust
Overlap..... 54*
This was supposed to be the 'Special Road Runner Camshaft', which was slightly
different than the 440/375 HiPo Camshaft.
Rico,
Here is what I found.
Colony Chrysler-Plymouth
Plymouth, Michigan
1968 Plymouth 383 Road Runner Test
November 1967
A 1968 Plymouth Road Runner 'Pillared Coupe' 383 4-Speed was tested at
Motor City Dragway @ New Baltimore, Michigan in November 1967.
According to the Dealer Report, the Road Runner came from the Factory with a 3.23 Gears w/Sure-Grip.
Which the Colony Plymouth Dealership replaced with a 3.91 Sure-Grip Gear set-up.
The Distributor received a 'Performance Curve' and the Carter AVS was 'tweaked' for optimal performance.
The 383 Road Runner ran a best of 14.44 @ 98.46 MPH, on stock F70 X 14" Tires.
According to the Dealer Test, the F70 X 14" Tires were replaced with a set of 'M & H' 8.50 x 14" Cheater Slicks.
The Road Runner was re-tested, and ran a best of 14.04 @ 100.26 MPH
* Shift Points were at 5200 RPM's
* Valve Float @ 5400 RPM's
Here is what I found.
Colony Chrysler-Plymouth
Plymouth, Michigan
1968 Plymouth 383 Road Runner Test
November 1967
A 1968 Plymouth Road Runner 'Pillared Coupe' 383 4-Speed was tested at
Motor City Dragway @ New Baltimore, Michigan in November 1967.
According to the Dealer Report, the Road Runner came from the Factory with a 3.23 Gears w/Sure-Grip.
Which the Colony Plymouth Dealership replaced with a 3.91 Sure-Grip Gear set-up.
The Distributor received a 'Performance Curve' and the Carter AVS was 'tweaked' for optimal performance.
The 383 Road Runner ran a best of 14.44 @ 98.46 MPH, on stock F70 X 14" Tires.
According to the Dealer Test, the F70 X 14" Tires were replaced with a set of 'M & H' 8.50 x 14" Cheater Slicks.
The Road Runner was re-tested, and ran a best of 14.04 @ 100.26 MPH
* Shift Points were at 5200 RPM's
* Valve Float @ 5400 RPM's
cudavert
DARTAHOLIC
Geez, if you go down item by item, it's hard to imagine all those changes would only equal 10 H.P. Something's not right.....
Kevin Jonker
Well-Known Member
I bought a pure stock 68 FB formula S B'Cuda, 340, auto, 3:23 open, had 145k on it when i purchased it from orig. owner. I was driving a 68 RR, 383, w/ headers otherwise pure stock, 4 spd, 3;23 open, at the time. While I never lined them up, I feel the fish was faster. Also lets remember that the 68 4 spd 340 cars had a hotter camshaft/dual point dist. then the following years. I think a 68 340, 4 spd coupe cuda or dart, with a factory part numbered, LD intake, headers and 3:91 gears would have been a formidable package!
Cudavert,
Correct.
Some Facts.
A) The 1968 383 had a slightly different rotating assembly than the 1967 383, as the
1968 Piston was now {+.021} Above the Block Deck, instead of {-.014} Below the Deck
B) The 1968 Intake Manifold was 'taller' than the 1967 Intake Manifold, as well as
having 10% Greater Branch Length, and 50% Greater Runner Size.
C) The 1968 Intake Manifold had a 1 11/16" Primary x 1 11/16" Secondary 'Square Bore' for Improved Flow.
D) The 1968 Carter AVS Carburetor 625 CFM (1 7/16" Primary x 1 11/16" Secondary)
was closer to 637 CFM.
E) The 1968 {#2843906} Cylinder Heads were 79.5 CC Open Chamber, which
had better Combustion Flow
F) The Intake Ports on the 1968 Cylinder Heads were 10% Larger, and the Intake Ports had a
radius-type design with less restricive bends in the port.
G) The Exhaust Valves (1.74" 1968 Cylinder Heads) versus (1.60" 1967 Cylinder Heads) were larger,
and the Exhaust Ports had an 18% improved flow.
H) Camshaft Specifications (see above)
I) Valve Spring Load-Rate (see above)
J) The 1968 383 Engine was equipped with an 'Oil Pan Windage-Tray'
K) The 1968 383 Engine came through with an 18" 7-Blade Fan, and Viscous Drive
Fan Clutch, while the 1967 383 had a 17" 4-Blade Fan with a Direct Fan Mount.
L) The Exhaust Manifolds for the 1968 383 had less restricive bends, and with the new Wind-Swept Design
with extended Header-passages, had a 40% Greater Flow than the 1967 Short-Header Exhaust Manifolds.
M) The Secondary Exhaust Piping (after the Muffler) for the 1968 383 was 2.25"
in Diameter, compared to 1.88" for the 1967 383.
Correct.
Some Facts.
A) The 1968 383 had a slightly different rotating assembly than the 1967 383, as the
1968 Piston was now {+.021} Above the Block Deck, instead of {-.014} Below the Deck
B) The 1968 Intake Manifold was 'taller' than the 1967 Intake Manifold, as well as
having 10% Greater Branch Length, and 50% Greater Runner Size.
C) The 1968 Intake Manifold had a 1 11/16" Primary x 1 11/16" Secondary 'Square Bore' for Improved Flow.
D) The 1968 Carter AVS Carburetor 625 CFM (1 7/16" Primary x 1 11/16" Secondary)
was closer to 637 CFM.
E) The 1968 {#2843906} Cylinder Heads were 79.5 CC Open Chamber, which
had better Combustion Flow
F) The Intake Ports on the 1968 Cylinder Heads were 10% Larger, and the Intake Ports had a
radius-type design with less restricive bends in the port.
G) The Exhaust Valves (1.74" 1968 Cylinder Heads) versus (1.60" 1967 Cylinder Heads) were larger,
and the Exhaust Ports had an 18% improved flow.
H) Camshaft Specifications (see above)
I) Valve Spring Load-Rate (see above)
J) The 1968 383 Engine was equipped with an 'Oil Pan Windage-Tray'
K) The 1968 383 Engine came through with an 18" 7-Blade Fan, and Viscous Drive
Fan Clutch, while the 1967 383 had a 17" 4-Blade Fan with a Direct Fan Mount.
L) The Exhaust Manifolds for the 1968 383 had less restricive bends, and with the new Wind-Swept Design
with extended Header-passages, had a 40% Greater Flow than the 1967 Short-Header Exhaust Manifolds.
M) The Secondary Exhaust Piping (after the Muffler) for the 1968 383 was 2.25"
in Diameter, compared to 1.88" for the 1967 383.
turbodart68
Well-Known Member
NHRA Stock is far from stock and is a very poor comparing point. I owned a 68 383 Road Runner with a 67 383 2 bbl motor with a four barrel intake and hipo manifolds installed. It ran 13.77 at 101 best on drag radials. I also bought a low mileage 1969 Road Runner with a numbers matching 383 auto 3.91 gear that ran 13.81 at 103 best on 195/70 white walls. Both cars were driven by me and totally stock at Bakersfield Raceway. So, the point is that there is the Road Runners benchmark where is the 340 cars benchmark. I would love for someone to loan me a Bcuda 340 for me to try. :glasses7:
Seriously though, has anyone else ran their 340 cuda in stock trim? That would be a fun day at the track trying to find out who was king of the hill.
Seriously though, has anyone else ran their 340 cuda in stock trim? That would be a fun day at the track trying to find out who was king of the hill.
TurboDart,
We're talking about 1968.
In Stock Class back then, you were limited on any 'up-grades', not like today.
* 7" Slicks were Maximum-Width
* No Lightweight Wheels
A 'Bone-Stock' 383 Road Runner w/3.91 Gears, tweaked with a 'Performance Curve' and
Carburetor Zip-Kit, and 7" Cheater-Slicks - could just about make 14.00's @ 100 MPH.
That is a Fact.
We're talking about 1968.
In Stock Class back then, you were limited on any 'up-grades', not like today.
* 7" Slicks were Maximum-Width
* No Lightweight Wheels
A 'Bone-Stock' 383 Road Runner w/3.91 Gears, tweaked with a 'Performance Curve' and
Carburetor Zip-Kit, and 7" Cheater-Slicks - could just about make 14.00's @ 100 MPH.
That is a Fact.
dartjack
Well-Known Member
14.00 is about as close as it gets. Had a 68 Bee, 4.10 in pure(bone) stock form. 14.07 was fastest run it ever made. Didn't realize it until someone made one run for me but it spun all the way through 1st gear(H70x14). 340's were a tick quicker. Hard pill to swallow but they were. Would pull 5600rpm in high gear with stock 3.23 though.
No Knock on the 1968 383 Road Runner, but 'Facts are Facts'.
Jerry Gross, one of the Top Chrysler Technician's tested many 1968 383 Road Runners.
His results with a 4-Speed, with added {3.91 Gears w/Sure-Grip}, was routinely
in the 14.25's @ 99 MPH.
Actually pretty decent numbers, which would make it a 'solid' Street Musclecar in 1968.
Remember, in 1968, the 3.55 Gear-Ratio was the only factory offered 'Perfornance Axle Option',
unless you had a 'contact' in Performance Sales at the Regional Zone Office.
Jerry Gross, one of the Top Chrysler Technician's tested many 1968 383 Road Runners.
His results with a 4-Speed, with added {3.91 Gears w/Sure-Grip}, was routinely
in the 14.25's @ 99 MPH.
Actually pretty decent numbers, which would make it a 'solid' Street Musclecar in 1968.
Remember, in 1968, the 3.55 Gear-Ratio was the only factory offered 'Perfornance Axle Option',
unless you had a 'contact' in Performance Sales at the Regional Zone Office.
Mark,
The Comparison between the; '1968' 383/335 HP and the '1967' 383/325 HP
1968 Road Runner
* 383/335 HP
* 3.23 Gears Sure-Grip
* #3425 lbs.
* 4-Speed ...... 15.01 @ 94 MPH {Average}
* Automatic ... 15.12 @ 93 MPH {Average}
1967 Belvedere
* 383/325 HP
* 3.23 Gears 'Sure-Grip
* #3450 lbs.
* 4-Speed ...... 15.77 @ 92 MPH {Average}
* Automatic ... 15.78 @ 92 MPH {Average}
That is a big difference in Elapsed Times for a +10 Horsepower difference, don't you think.
The Comparison between the; '1968' 383/335 HP and the '1967' 383/325 HP
1968 Road Runner
* 383/335 HP
* 3.23 Gears Sure-Grip
* #3425 lbs.
* 4-Speed ...... 15.01 @ 94 MPH {Average}
* Automatic ... 15.12 @ 93 MPH {Average}
1967 Belvedere
* 383/325 HP
* 3.23 Gears 'Sure-Grip
* #3450 lbs.
* 4-Speed ...... 15.77 @ 92 MPH {Average}
* Automatic ... 15.78 @ 92 MPH {Average}
That is a big difference in Elapsed Times for a +10 Horsepower difference, don't you think.
Super Stockers In Action
Tested a new 1968 Barracuda 340/275 HP in November 1967
1968 Barracuda 340-S
3.23 Gear-Ratio w/Sure-Grip
4-Speed
14.73 @ 96.7 MPH
Tested a new 1968 Barracuda 340/275 HP in November 1967
1968 Barracuda 340-S
3.23 Gear-Ratio w/Sure-Grip
4-Speed
14.73 @ 96.7 MPH
Hi Performance Cars {June 1968}
383 Road Runner Street/Strip Set Up
383 Road Runner Street/Strip Set Up
moparlover
Well-Known Member
the '68 hemi darts ran 10.30's in the 1/4.
dont forget they also made 100's of 440 darts and 383 darts.
all of them would stomp the snot out of the 340 cars.
nuff said.
dont forget they also made 100's of 440 darts and 383 darts.
all of them would stomp the snot out of the 340 cars.
nuff said.
Mr. Mopar Lover
I think you missed the point of this thread.
It is a 1968 Barracuda 340-S versus a 1968 383 Road Runner........
And not to embarrass you,
Yes, Mopar produced about a 1000 in total of the 1969 440 A-Body cars
* Dart 440 and 440 Cuda.
But the 383 A-Body cars did not outrun the 340 A-Body, not in Stock or Super Stock
from 1968 thru the 1970's.
As for the 1968 426 Hemi A-Body,,,,,,,,,,,Please don't go there.
They did not run 10.30's when they left the factory.........Never.
Hersbird
Well-Known Member
So what exactly is the point of this thread? Sometimes on is faster, sometimes the other. This is silly bench racing on cars you will not even come across anymore. Who does a pure stock rebuild on their 383 or 340, and the few that do then don't go out and hammer them to their fullest on the drag strip. Both cars were close enough to come down to the driver. Both cars are awesome!
Car Life {December 1967}
ZLJBPnqepgyHQ~~60_57.JPG)
Really enjoying this debate.
I always said, IN MY OPINION, my 2 fastest A-bodY PREDICTIONS right off the showroom floor with break-in miles only:
1868 Barracuda notch back, 340 4 speed, 3.91 gear. (light weight and hotter stick cam 1968 only)
1971 Duster, same drive train. (BIG Thermoquad, 340's seem to love bigger than normal carbs, still high compression)
My buddy Rick ordered a new 1972 340 Duster, Sherwood Green, bench seat, low compression 340, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure grip. As soon as the weather turned warm in the Spring of 72 we took it to Dragway 42 (it was still a 4 lane drag strip back then) Everything was stock except he had put G70-14 Polyglas tires on the rear Rallyes and it now had 4000 miles.
Right off the street, he made a pass and it ran 14.51. (I don't remember the MPH but remember the ET like it was yesterday) Then I screwed up...I wanted to tweak it a little and had brought some lighter advance springs for the distributor. It took longer than I thought and we missed out on any more runs before class call so it only made the single pass, ever.
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