now that's funny .
2 step time !
- Thread starter j par
- Start date
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now that's funny .
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
I will throw in my .02 to help the guys following along that want learn and UNDERSTAND what to do.
The first thing to remember when using a stick is there are very few of us. The last people you want to ask what to do with a stick car is the guys running slush boxes. The two do not relate. To pick an RPM for a torque converter car, you go by stall speed.
As to a stick, the general rule of thumb is 2/3 of your engine speed is the STARTING POINT to set the 2 step. If you are shifting at 6000, you would start at 4000 on the chip and TUNE it from there. But it's not that simple. Starting Line Ratio plays a big factor in getting the car moving. Flywheel weight and the total mass of the clutch system plays a part. More mass means the higher you go on the chip, the harder you hit the tire. You want the 2 step to help control how much load the tires see at launch.
That also includes using shock settings (which is why anything less that a double adjustable shock on both ends of the car is a crap shoot) to control axle movement and front suspension seperation and how fast it separates.
Then there is the clutch itself. If you have a nonadjustable clutch, well, it's about the same as having a carb that you can't change the jets. Or the idle speed. If the clutch goes from a gap of the industry standard .060 to clamped and LOCKED UP when the pedal is out, you have effectively put all that load on the engine, and the tires. This means you may have to use the 2 step to band aid a poor clutch that is not tuneable. That's why one size doesn't fit all.
As to why you put the switch on the pedal, it's simple really. You cannot allow the engine to see load while it is on the 2 step. You want engine RPM going up the instant you start to move your foot. If you set the 2 step to stay on as the clutch comes out, you are loading the engine while it is still being controlled by the 2 step. You cannot time your thumb to match your foot and get it right once, if ever. You cannot load the engine and let it miss on random cylinders. I can tell you from personal experience this will break parts and can break your engine. I have watched a customer kill engine after engine after engine. Upon autopsy, it looked like it was getting killed in high gear (blown gas 5 speed car that eventually set the BB/A National record and he won the World Finals in 2005 or 2006 IIRC) so he continued to work on high gear. In the end, it was his setting of the 2 step and not getting it off the 2 step before the clutch loaded the engine. We caught it adjusting the clutch one night in his shop after work. I could hear the switch clicking long after the pedal was off the stop. After a long, heated discussion I told him he was killing his stuff right at the tree, not in high gear. After some more discussion, sketching on a pad, looking at th pedal and the switch, he called one of his buddies who had been his friend for decades. It was Frank Iaconio. After a 20 minute lecture as to why my customer was wrong, we spent the rest of the night correcting the switch to make it let go of the engine as soon as he wiggled his foot.
Then the process of tuning started all over again. That little correction changed the tune up. He had to change the shock settings. He changed first gear in the Lenco to get a higher SLR. But eventually he set and reset the National record.
This is all to show that the 2 step is a very cool tuning tool. But it is not on an island. One change to the 2 step causes changes to be made in suspension. Changes to be made in clutch, which is why an adjustable clutch is so important.
I'll finish with Starting Line Ratio because it is SO overlooked in stick cars. A SLR of less than 11.5 is not good. It means you probably need a steel flywheel to get the car moving, considering we are talking about low 9 second STICK cars all the way to the 12's. A steel FW takes more time to rev up, which means you need to RAISE THE RPM, which in turn, hits the tires harder. Now you have to tune the shocks. Slow the extension down on both ends of the car. It is a process. If you get the SLR over 12, you can use an aluminum FW, which will rev faster, hit the tires softer. You can chip the engine down and let it eat. I know guys running Stock Eliminator who have a SLR of over 18!!!!!!!!! They understand you have to get the car to move.
You can also use the 2 step to control traction. If the track is slick you can adjust the 2 step. If the track is biting like you are on cogs, you can use the 2 step to reduce ET.
Hope this helps the few stick guys interested in learning, who are willing to test and who are open to understanding why some of us ***** the loudest when guys don't buy double adjustable shocks, or think a nonadjustable clutch is good enough, when in reality, it is as useless as an unadjustable carb, or a distributor that you couldn't manipulate the timing curve.
It's all about the package. I realize most guys are into setting National Records, running on an index and things like that. I think some guys buy parts just so they can start threads on the interwebs or think it's cool to stand in the pits and tell everyone what they have.
Learn all you can about how the clutch/2 step/suspension/shocks and tune up all fit together. They are separate systems, but just like the lungs are not the heart, they both affect each other.
The first thing to remember when using a stick is there are very few of us. The last people you want to ask what to do with a stick car is the guys running slush boxes. The two do not relate. To pick an RPM for a torque converter car, you go by stall speed.
As to a stick, the general rule of thumb is 2/3 of your engine speed is the STARTING POINT to set the 2 step. If you are shifting at 6000, you would start at 4000 on the chip and TUNE it from there. But it's not that simple. Starting Line Ratio plays a big factor in getting the car moving. Flywheel weight and the total mass of the clutch system plays a part. More mass means the higher you go on the chip, the harder you hit the tire. You want the 2 step to help control how much load the tires see at launch.
That also includes using shock settings (which is why anything less that a double adjustable shock on both ends of the car is a crap shoot) to control axle movement and front suspension seperation and how fast it separates.
Then there is the clutch itself. If you have a nonadjustable clutch, well, it's about the same as having a carb that you can't change the jets. Or the idle speed. If the clutch goes from a gap of the industry standard .060 to clamped and LOCKED UP when the pedal is out, you have effectively put all that load on the engine, and the tires. This means you may have to use the 2 step to band aid a poor clutch that is not tuneable. That's why one size doesn't fit all.
As to why you put the switch on the pedal, it's simple really. You cannot allow the engine to see load while it is on the 2 step. You want engine RPM going up the instant you start to move your foot. If you set the 2 step to stay on as the clutch comes out, you are loading the engine while it is still being controlled by the 2 step. You cannot time your thumb to match your foot and get it right once, if ever. You cannot load the engine and let it miss on random cylinders. I can tell you from personal experience this will break parts and can break your engine. I have watched a customer kill engine after engine after engine. Upon autopsy, it looked like it was getting killed in high gear (blown gas 5 speed car that eventually set the BB/A National record and he won the World Finals in 2005 or 2006 IIRC) so he continued to work on high gear. In the end, it was his setting of the 2 step and not getting it off the 2 step before the clutch loaded the engine. We caught it adjusting the clutch one night in his shop after work. I could hear the switch clicking long after the pedal was off the stop. After a long, heated discussion I told him he was killing his stuff right at the tree, not in high gear. After some more discussion, sketching on a pad, looking at th pedal and the switch, he called one of his buddies who had been his friend for decades. It was Frank Iaconio. After a 20 minute lecture as to why my customer was wrong, we spent the rest of the night correcting the switch to make it let go of the engine as soon as he wiggled his foot.
Then the process of tuning started all over again. That little correction changed the tune up. He had to change the shock settings. He changed first gear in the Lenco to get a higher SLR. But eventually he set and reset the National record.
This is all to show that the 2 step is a very cool tuning tool. But it is not on an island. One change to the 2 step causes changes to be made in suspension. Changes to be made in clutch, which is why an adjustable clutch is so important.
I'll finish with Starting Line Ratio because it is SO overlooked in stick cars. A SLR of less than 11.5 is not good. It means you probably need a steel flywheel to get the car moving, considering we are talking about low 9 second STICK cars all the way to the 12's. A steel FW takes more time to rev up, which means you need to RAISE THE RPM, which in turn, hits the tires harder. Now you have to tune the shocks. Slow the extension down on both ends of the car. It is a process. If you get the SLR over 12, you can use an aluminum FW, which will rev faster, hit the tires softer. You can chip the engine down and let it eat. I know guys running Stock Eliminator who have a SLR of over 18!!!!!!!!! They understand you have to get the car to move.
You can also use the 2 step to control traction. If the track is slick you can adjust the 2 step. If the track is biting like you are on cogs, you can use the 2 step to reduce ET.
Hope this helps the few stick guys interested in learning, who are willing to test and who are open to understanding why some of us ***** the loudest when guys don't buy double adjustable shocks, or think a nonadjustable clutch is good enough, when in reality, it is as useless as an unadjustable carb, or a distributor that you couldn't manipulate the timing curve.
It's all about the package. I realize most guys are into setting National Records, running on an index and things like that. I think some guys buy parts just so they can start threads on the interwebs or think it's cool to stand in the pits and tell everyone what they have.
Learn all you can about how the clutch/2 step/suspension/shocks and tune up all fit together. They are separate systems, but just like the lungs are not the heart, they both affect each other.
19DART66
Well-Known Member
j par I can see that you and yellow rose don't see eye to eye but he is right here. I will try to describe how I have my 2 step set up ( don't have the computer skills to make a drawing, sorry). What you need is a long arm nitrous micro switch( I used a nitrous switch because there suppose to be quicker) and a 5 prong 8961 relay, on the relay there are 5 numbered prongs( 30c, 85,86,87, and 87a ). Hook the 2 step up to the ignition box(I use MSD) hook black wire from 2 step to good ground, the red wire from 2 step goes to the #87 prong on relay. Now hook a jumper wire between the #87 prong and #85 prong okay now run a wire from #85 prong and T it into the wire from line lock button to the solenoid(this is the wire that activates the solenoid). Hook the#86 prong to ground, Hook the #30c prong to the micro switch and 12v power to other side of micro switch. Now I have 6" inches of travel in my clutch pedal, there is 2" of free play on top and my clutch starts grabbing about 2" from floor or higher depending on RPM. I set the micro switch to release at 1 1/2". Okay now you pull to the line, you push the line lock button( which is now the actuation switch and line lock)stage the car push clutch to floor(hold to floor) release line lock button hold throttle to floor dump clutch on third yellow. which opens micro switch which kills relay, all wiring is back to normal and you are on your way down the track with better reaction times and better 60' and more consistent 1/4 mile ET because you are leaving at the same RPM every time. Yes you will probably go more rounds once you get it dialed in.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
I have seen it done with a very simple push button starter switch!!!!!
It need not be expensive or exotic. Just a momentary on switch.
j par
Well-hung Member
thank you for the idea and I believe I get what you're saying
j par
Well-hung Member
I'm going to try this one time so as we stop making each other look like Jack Wheels.
Here goes I think you think too much of my car and what my purpose is and what I'm doing. The advice that you give to me a lot of times it's far too technical for me I don't know half the terms that you're talking about and certainly don't know any of the people or names that you drop. I don't have a clue what you're talking about a lot of times. This is just purely a hobby to have fun. I am not racing any kind of Championship. I'm not worried about anything except for coming home safely. I just plain go to have fun as a matter of fact to make this point hit home as I can, one of my friends said one of the other wives is bringing pulled pork sandwiches for us all and half my thoughts go to the racing and have my thoughts go to that yummy food. that's how dedicated I am to racing a track. I'm just there to have fun and race along with my buddies and help if I can.
If I went to the track and know absolutely everything about the car and absolutely everything how to drive it and how to set everything up I would probably lose interest very quickly and move on to another Hobby. As it is now I get to learn break things at times and hopefully try to make different adjustments. I appreciate the fact that you're trying to help. I really don't need to know your Bona fides or what your car looks like but if you come down to the track just come over and say hello and if you can be of some help I sure appreciate it. If you don't want to be of help that's fine too. I really don't know what else to say here I'm not out on this form to make enemies or piss people off I'm just here to have fun maybe share some of my experiences and maybe learn a thing or two. But not everything. Lots of times I like to learn things on my own it's part of the fun of doing it.
:happy1:
wesgriffiths
Well-Known Member
I run my 2 step off a switch on the shifter handle. I have it wired in line with my line lock to hold the car front rolling at the line. It may not be as consistent as having it on the clutch pedal but I've had very good luck and been pretty consistent. I started at 3000 rpm but had a bog so upped it till the bog went away,now set a 5500
j par
Well-hung Member
Since I've had the new motor in I've never experienced a bog off the line. Now of course this is just me free revving it by ear. Really the two step was just a way of making sure I was being a little bit more consistent at the light. But this seems to have brought About a big stir exactly how I was going to do it. But my plan was pretty much as you stated I mean I think I'm just using the other hand for the button as far as I can tell the difference?
j par
Well-hung Member
It's been hooked up for a week now and working fine. Just not how most would do it. Thank you...
GTSDave
Active Member
FWIW, I run my two step and line lock off of the button on my shifter. I launch at 5400.
-Dave
-Dave
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
What is the benefit of not doing it off the clutch pedal?
I get it is a little more time consuming, to install but you can use a simple starter button mounted on the floor. I can't imagine how any of you are not either pulling the engine down while it is still on the limiter or the engine is free revving until the clutch gets loaded.
Curious to understand what you gain by putting the 2 step on a separate button. It's not s transbrake so you are asking 3 different systems to coordinate every time you let out the clutch.
These questions are for adults, that are capable of reasonable, thoughtful discussion. For you others, there is romperroom.com and you need to move along. This discussion is not for you.
Some don't get it ! I do. Sometimes the olive branch is diseased, it is best to just cut it off.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Guess I don't get it. If someone does something differently, I'd like to know why.
Seems like a bunch of babies on here.
All you have to do is say why you'd mount the 2 step switch on the steering wheel. I didn't give a comprehensive explanation why I mount it to the floor, but I gave a general idea why I think it's a better deal.
If you can't ask and answer simple questions, you ought not leave your basement.
So why do you think it's better to mount a 2 step on the steering wheel, like you would with a transbrake?
Idiotic olive branch. WTF????
Seems like a bunch of babies on here.
All you have to do is say why you'd mount the 2 step switch on the steering wheel. I didn't give a comprehensive explanation why I mount it to the floor, but I gave a general idea why I think it's a better deal.
If you can't ask and answer simple questions, you ought not leave your basement.
So why do you think it's better to mount a 2 step on the steering wheel, like you would with a transbrake?
Idiotic olive branch. WTF????
GTSDave
Active Member
For me, having it on the shifter worked out better so far. I do my burnout in 3rd gear and it sometimes hits my 5,400 chip as I get it. At the end of the burnout, I release the line lock and, and first step then mat it for the last part of the burnout.
On the line at the hit I slide my thumb off the side of the button and release the clutch peddle at the same time. I guess it is the way I practice using the Jegs practice tree app on my phone (free.) I slide my thumb sideways on the phone button the same as I do on my shifter. I use a T handle shifter if that makes any difference.
-Dave
On the line at the hit I slide my thumb off the side of the button and release the clutch peddle at the same time. I guess it is the way I practice using the Jegs practice tree app on my phone (free.) I slide my thumb sideways on the phone button the same as I do on my shifter. I use a T handle shifter if that makes any difference.
-Dave
Yellow rose, i have read everything you have posted on this thread. And there is some great insight to what you are saying. I don't have a stick shift car, but it was vary interesting just the same.
I think you need to reread post #31 again. for you, racing is fun because you know how to set up a car to make the best out of a combo and you take pride in that! I get it.
But there was a time you had a stock esh car that you just took out to the track to have fun with a couple of friends. Try and remember them days.
You may think that J Bar is NOT listening BUT, when he goes out and try it his way, and the learning curve is more than he thought (everything work better in our mind's eye then in reality) He will be back reading this thread some more.
Me personally, i would have wanted to put it on the wheel or shifter knob also and wouldn't have wanted to agree with youR ideas either. I HAVE INSTALLED IT AND AM GOING TO TRY IT!
I think you need to reread post #31 again. for you, racing is fun because you know how to set up a car to make the best out of a combo and you take pride in that! I get it.
But there was a time you had a stock esh car that you just took out to the track to have fun with a couple of friends. Try and remember them days.
You may think that J Bar is NOT listening BUT, when he goes out and try it his way, and the learning curve is more than he thought (everything work better in our mind's eye then in reality) He will be back reading this thread some more.
Me personally, i would have wanted to put it on the wheel or shifter knob also and wouldn't have wanted to agree with youR ideas either. I HAVE INSTALLED IT AND AM GOING TO TRY IT!
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