2nd ring end gap with KB hypers?

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oliver

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I have heard that some now use a larger 2nd ring gap so trapped gasses can escape into the crank case instead of unseating the top ring.... dunno if its true but the sealed power moly rings i had before filing had a top gap of about .019" and a 2nd ring gap of .022". I filed the top rings to .032" but im unsure if i should touch the 2nd ring or not. Any input?
 
leave the 2nd rings as is.
I always leave the 2nd ring at stock spec and only gap the top extra 'bore x .0065-.0075+ depending on app'

example- 4.040 x .0065=.026...'which I then add another .002 for .028'
 
leave the 2nd rings as is.
I always leave the 2nd ring at stock spec and only gap the top extra 'bore x .0065-.0075+ depending on app'

example- 4.040 x .0065=.026...'which I then add another .002 for .028'

cool. yea i gapped the top at 4.100 * .0075 = .031 and i usually go a thou or so bigger. i think i might have over filed one to .034 or .035 :eek:ops: but i think it will be fine.
 
leave the 2nd rings as is.
I always leave the 2nd ring at stock spec and only gap the top extra 'bore x .0065-.0075+ depending on app'

example- 4.040 x .0065=.026...'which I then add another .002 for .028'

This is exactly what I did for my 360, although the 2nd-level rings they include with their piston kits come with much bigger gaps then the 1st-level ones... The KB instruction sheet that comes with their pistons explains it. "Second compression rings should be at least .xxxx * bore size"

http://www.kb-silvolite.com/assets/kb_installation.pdf
 
yep...and you generally end up at chryslers factory recommendation of around .016

Exactly!! I've talked with the president of united engines (makers of KBs) back about 11 yrs. ago about this because 3 machinest screwed up 2 KB builds i was doing by not following KBs directions :banghead:, United Engines recammend the sec. ring end gap to stay around factory specs, If you notice on the KB (Hypers) there is a V bevel around the piston between the 1st. sec. ring, this is for heat, Because the Hypers do not absorb much heat it needs to go somewhere, so its transfered to the top ring, thats why that ring is widened, any extra heat is tranfered into that V groove below the top ring, But you don't want any excess gap on the sec. ring because you'll build too much pressure in the crank case & have blow by, You "WILL" loose valuable HP by doing this, I gapped my sec. rings on a .060" 360 too .017" & set the skirts up at .02.5" (2.1/2 thousands) yes that tight, My tops were gapped at .032 because i planned on running 125-150 shot. In the end after going through the "right" sorce that was the quitest & best KB build EVER, Absalutely 0 blow by & tons of power.
 
I respectfully disagree. The president is not who you want to talk to. Talk to a ring company's engineeer. He's right in terms of the piston design and material (and much the center of his own marketing). He's totally wrong on understanding how a modern stack of rings work together. The top ring seals on the bore surface, but it also seals against the lower surface of the piston's ring land. The second ring has nothing to do with compression sealing. It's an oil scraping ring and it's edge is designed to do just that. Any pressure retained by this ring is a consequence of it's other function. Once you realize the top ring seals on the lower side of the ring land pressure below that ring is a problem. The problem is when the second ring gap is tight (factory specs) as rpm increases and there's less time for the pressure that will natrally be produced in that area cannot escape. It pushes up on the top ring, and pushes the top ring away from the ring land. You lose the sealing ability of the ring that is actually designed to do it. Then the 2nd ring has to try to seal combustion pressure, and then neither ring is doing what it's supposed to. You lose rpm and power with it, plus it wears the rings and lands faster. This is just a better understanding of how things work than what Mopar had in the 50s when they designed these engines. It's also a "trick" that many pro builders use but few admit to. In this case, with the larger top ring gap that KB has to have, you dont use the same spec of "top ring plus .***". You have to use the factory 2nd ring spec as the base to add to. So a typical 340 +.030 with KB hypers for me is gapped like this:
Top ring - .016 (4.07x.004) +.008 = .024"
Second ring - .016 + .004 = .020"
 
Im looking forward to see the hp/rpm diff that .004 makes on the second ring, let alone if the top ring is doing its job...whats getting by..

oh then there are those bevels on the rings, like on the second ring to allow preasure to force the ring agsinst the cyl wall on down stroke so that it scrapes the oil off...then upone the upstroke does not...and instead the top rings get forced agsinst the cyl wall to help seal...
thats a good amount of help coming from 100s of psi...then add the 1000+psi from combustion..

sorry but i do not see your point.
 
That's ok. I didn't expect you to. That's ok by me. As I said... I respectively disagree.
 
Little update on this, i talked to my buddy who has a shop up north and he specializes in some crazy chebbie builds but also builds budget strokers with kb hypers. he told me that he used to run the gaps per KB and noticed that he got a few come backs with blown out ring lands, he says he thinks it from the bad california gas, people who drive the car daily and don't keep it in tune, and run it hard when its not in tune.
He says he adds anywhere from .006 to .010 thou extra gap on the top rings and he has not had another failure. So he said run a .036 gap for the top ring and he told me all new sealed power 2nd rings will be gapped a bit bigger (about .022) from the factory. So, im running the tops at .036 and the 2nd rings gapped at .022-.024 out of the box.
 
OK I think I'm missing something here, my 2nd ring gaps out of the box were WAY bigger than the top rings even after I filed the top ones a teeny bit to get to .028". Just to make sure the second rings are the ones with the 'bevel' and the dot that indicates which direction is 'up', right?
 
OK I think I'm missing something here, my 2nd ring gaps out of the box were WAY bigger than the top rings even after I filed the top ones a teeny bit to get to .028". Just to make sure the second rings are the ones with the 'bevel' and the dot that indicates which direction is 'up', right?

Yep, alot of ring manufacturers are making the 2nd ring gaps bigger so the trapped gasses between the 1st and 2nd ring can escape easier. I think its a pretty new thing.
 
Yep, alot of ring manufacturers are making the 2nd ring gaps bigger so the trapped gasses between the 1st and 2nd ring can escape easier. I think its a pretty new thing.

Oh good... I was afraid I installed them wrong and would have to tear my engine apart.
 
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