Your exactly right.Great Falls, Bozeman, Missoula? How do I know?I'm german, but long time ago I went on a road trip
which led us from Glacier Nat. Park to Yellowstone and further, passing Helena. Sorry, OT.
318 with 675/318 or 974/360 heads Cam Recommendations
- Thread starter Scampi
- Start date
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nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
Boy, you would think that Butte with its extensive mining history would have a couple of machinists. And here is a place in Great Falls that looks like it is a real shop: Machine Shop
Well, the one point not to lose sight of is the balance factor... losing 40-to 80 grams off the piston weight (the exact amount depends on the oversize) is not what I would want in a engine I would rev up. The KB399's is a way to make the piston weight change a lot less. Again, please pick up the phone and call the folks at KB and ask about the actual weights of the .060" oversize 167's and 399's, so this can be computed. Saving that re-balance work cost would be well worthwhile; based on your head milling quote, re-balance work could be $400 or more.
And you DID catch the fact that this SCR of 9.6 with the KB399's is with the 360 heads, right?
As for the 91 octane, what you really care about is not the 9.6 SCR but what is the dynamic compression ratio, DCR. This is effected by the SCR and the cam and cam timing, AND also your altitude. Your altitude drops the DCR by about 8 tenths of a point. so really you are operating with an 'effective' DCR of 7.3 in the Helena area. That ought to be plenty safe for 91 octane.... a stock 318 would be in the upper 6 DCR range, which goes all day long on low octane fuel. I've run iron heads and 8.3 DCR (8.1 effective at 1000' altitude) on the street for almost 100k miles on 93 octane, so you are way better off than that.
And if you jump up to the 262 or Lunati 702 cam, that drops the DCR another 0.2 points. So there are ways to adjust it up or down a bit if you so desire. The mid-7's for effective DCR is a nice range to be in for the street.... torquey but not hard to tune, and you are at or below that, even if you drive to Billing down at around 3000'. (Heck, I bet you could even de-tune it to not detonate at sea level IMHO.) Start easy in the total timing advance at WOT and work it up a bit at a time.
Well, the one point not to lose sight of is the balance factor... losing 40-to 80 grams off the piston weight (the exact amount depends on the oversize) is not what I would want in a engine I would rev up. The KB399's is a way to make the piston weight change a lot less. Again, please pick up the phone and call the folks at KB and ask about the actual weights of the .060" oversize 167's and 399's, so this can be computed. Saving that re-balance work cost would be well worthwhile; based on your head milling quote, re-balance work could be $400 or more.
And you DID catch the fact that this SCR of 9.6 with the KB399's is with the 360 heads, right?
As for the 91 octane, what you really care about is not the 9.6 SCR but what is the dynamic compression ratio, DCR. This is effected by the SCR and the cam and cam timing, AND also your altitude. Your altitude drops the DCR by about 8 tenths of a point. so really you are operating with an 'effective' DCR of 7.3 in the Helena area. That ought to be plenty safe for 91 octane.... a stock 318 would be in the upper 6 DCR range, which goes all day long on low octane fuel. I've run iron heads and 8.3 DCR (8.1 effective at 1000' altitude) on the street for almost 100k miles on 93 octane, so you are way better off than that.
And if you jump up to the 262 or Lunati 702 cam, that drops the DCR another 0.2 points. So there are ways to adjust it up or down a bit if you so desire. The mid-7's for effective DCR is a nice range to be in for the street.... torquey but not hard to tune, and you are at or below that, even if you drive to Billing down at around 3000'. (Heck, I bet you could even de-tune it to not detonate at sea level IMHO.) Start easy in the total timing advance at WOT and work it up a bit at a time.
Wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
Would the Mike Jones 256 cam or the Voodoo 256 cam still be good if the SCR is 9.6?
should be fine
256 @.006 Jones cam is shorter than the 250 comp at .004 Voodoo could be the same IDK
the are designed for the larger .904 dia Chrysler lifter
both have more lift than the 250 or 256 comp - about the same as the 268 comp Jones is .305 cam lift- Idk about Lunati without looking it up
both are bigger in the crank angle area where the downward piston is sucking the hardest Jones is much bigger- IDK about Lunati
Jones is bigger than the 268 comp or 260 Mopar performance (there by 50%)
remember you can swap pins to fine tune the balance
I like the pop up piston idea with the big heads
fine tune the gaskets to fine tune the compression
too bad KB does not have any quench dome pistons for the 318 like they do for the 360- but they don't
when you call them ask why not
Wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
I have a couple but none in a 318
the actual seat timing is quite short so it should idle fine
depending on where the lca is set
let me know what you find out
the actual seat timing is quite short so it should idle fine
depending on where the lca is set
let me know what you find out
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
That is a good thought, wyrm..... if you used stock pins that is another 22 grams on to the bobweight versus the pins that come with the KB167 or KB399's. If with the KB399's, and the oversize is as heavy as I think, then with a stock piston, the weight difference going from stock to .060" over pistons will be only around 20-25 grams off of stock.... that would be OK IMHO for a basic hot rod engine.
Here are some NOS TRW pins that are on sale for $30 for a full set of 8, and if they are stockers, they will weight 154 grams, which is 22 grams heavier than the pins that KB supplies. Pretty cheap...
318 340 360 CHRYSLER DODGE PISTON PINS WRIST PINS SET OF 8 P1182 | eBay
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
Well, I had to satisfy MY curiousity, and so I called UEM about the .060" oversize KB399's.... weight increases from the standard bore weight by 21 grams, to 573 grams nominal. Not as much as I hoped.
Now comparing to the stock weights, AND using the stock pins rather than the KB pins, I am coming up with numbers that are around 20 grams lighter than nominal stock bobweight: 2150 grams versus 2172 grams.. Since reported weights from the factory varied that much or a bit more, it seems OK for a basic hot rod engine.
Now comparing to the stock weights, AND using the stock pins rather than the KB pins, I am coming up with numbers that are around 20 grams lighter than nominal stock bobweight: 2150 grams versus 2172 grams.. Since reported weights from the factory varied that much or a bit more, it seems OK for a basic hot rod engine.
Slantsix64
Well-Known Member
Get a 318 roller motor they have pistons .040 in the hole, send the cam to Oregon cams grind 1006 260/264 duration 480 lift port out the 302 heads and you got a fire cracker on the cheap! Also you can mill some 360 heads and stick them on the roller block compression would be decent. You can find them in the junk yards get a low mile fuel injected one less wear on cylinder walls. I took apart a 250000 roller motor and there let me tell you the thing had wayyyyy Less wear than my 72 318 with 200000k
PRH
Well-Known Member
The $325 to mill a pair of sb Mopar heads .040 does seem sort of high...... unless it also includes milling the intake side the corresponding amount.
Of course, if you bring in two assembled and/or greasy, oily heads........ some cleaning has to be done prior to putting them in the machine....... maybe that’s part of the price.
If you brought me two disassembled heads that were pretty grease and oil free, the milling of the decks(only) .040 at my shop would be $120.
Mill intake side, another $120.
In most modern machines, the head sits upside down, and milling .040 off an iron head makes a lot of filings........ that cling really well to anything even remotely oily.
If you brought me two assembled oily heads, wanted the decks and intake faced .040....... and the wanted to receive two assembled heads back...... it would easily be $325(probably more).
Just depends on exactly what you’re getting for $325.
If that the price is for milling the decks only, nothing else...... that seems like the “I don’t want your business” price.
Of course, if you bring in two assembled and/or greasy, oily heads........ some cleaning has to be done prior to putting them in the machine....... maybe that’s part of the price.
If you brought me two disassembled heads that were pretty grease and oil free, the milling of the decks(only) .040 at my shop would be $120.
Mill intake side, another $120.
In most modern machines, the head sits upside down, and milling .040 off an iron head makes a lot of filings........ that cling really well to anything even remotely oily.
If you brought me two assembled oily heads, wanted the decks and intake faced .040....... and the wanted to receive two assembled heads back...... it would easily be $325(probably more).
Just depends on exactly what you’re getting for $325.
If that the price is for milling the decks only, nothing else...... that seems like the “I don’t want your business” price.
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I specifically asked him on the phone what it would cost to mill a pair of heads .040 for a 318 dodge. You could tell that he took a while in his mind to come up with a number. Then he blurted out $325. I thanked him and thought about my other options. If you were in the area I would definitely be bringing my engines to you! Thanks for giving me a reasonable price. I see why guys buy aftermarket heads and crate engines. I will be calling great falls and Missoula on Monday to see if they are more reasonable.
Thanks
Eric
Thanks
Eric
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
Disassemble 25.00
Clean in the jet wash and blast cab 75.00
Mag 40.00
Mill deck/face correction 65.00-120.00 depending on how much.
Bring in something clean in and the price goes down near $100... and if you know your stuff not cracked or do not request a MAG test it just went down another 40 to $45
How long does it take you? and haven't you made a fixture for for American v8 heads?
It would be a machinist dream if people went along with the idea that you had to pay $325 to have your heads milled in the intake face corrected as well holy fook....lol.
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PRH
Well-Known Member
I guess in my mind there should have been a follow up question as to what exactly you would get for $325.
That pause could have been him adding up a few operations in his head...... to get to the $325 mark.
Of course....... maybe not, and he just pulled that number out if his a$$.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
I just had a valve job on a set of J heads the prices were as follows.
Valve job 150
Mag 25
Mill heads 100
The heads I took to him were not super dirty or greasy, but needed cleaned up.
Valve job 150
Mag 25
Mill heads 100
The heads I took to him were not super dirty or greasy, but needed cleaned up.
That is more like it. Reasonable prices.
PRH
Well-Known Member
This is another one of those situations where it’s unclear exactly what you’re getting with a .......”valve job”.
Means different things in different shops.
When I make out the invoice, I list all the operations that are performed.
The operations that I do to complete what I would call a “valve job”(you bring in two assembled heads, get back two assembled reconditioned heads...... assuming the heads aren’t extra grungy or rusty):
-disassemble heads
-jet wash heads
-bead blast chambers and ports
-jet wash again
-recondition valves
-machine & finish grind seats
-clean all parts
-test springs
-final jet wash
-assemble heads & set spring heights
That’s $450 at my shop,
Magnaflux and milling not included
If the heads need to be oven cleaned & shot blasted it adds $40
To do all that for $150........ someone would have to have an extremely low overhead, and have a really low hourly rate.
It is a family owned and run shop.
The dad passed away and left the shop and equipment to his children.
The son is the machinist, and his two sisters run the front counter.
The kids are in there mid-fifty’s and it is all they have done all there life.
I asked for a quote to do a extremely rusty 340:
Clean block $100
Line bore $125
Mag $50
Bore cylinders $100
PRH
Well-Known Member
Just illustrates how much where you’re located can affect the prices you’ll be paying.
Other than the block cleaning, those prices are similar to what you’d pay around here...... 30-ish years ago.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
Not to be offensive at all... but some areas the money is just not there in the general economy to charge higher prices. Some parts of the country are flat out poorer overall and you can't get anywhere charging prices that would hold up in the NE, for example.
Wow that is cheap! I thought that the valve job was for a head that was all taken apart and cleaned. The only thing that I was thinking that he would do for that price was grinding the valves and seats and giving it back to you unassembled.
Here a boring for 8 cylinders is $240 and up.
Here a boring for 8 cylinders is $240 and up.
PRH
Well-Known Member
I understand that’s how it is... but on the other hand, when you want to buy a new head resurfacer or guide and seat machine and the price is $25,000........ it’s the same $25,000 in WV as it is up here.
You need to be able to charge enough to pay for the machine, and still have a little left over for rent/food, etc....... as well as maintenance and updates for the equipment.
Engine rebuilding equipment is stupid money.
As an example, when I wanted to add the capability of using the Serdi style cutters to my guide and seat machine...... 2 cutter bodies, 3 tip holders, and an assortment of bits was about $2000..... and the sharpening tool was another $1000.
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
Understood totally how it works... I've run my business for 16 years. The local shops here buy used equipment or modify a lot of their equipment; my most favorite shop bought used Serdi capable equipment out of a NASCAR operation. The seat of their operations around Charlotte makes it practical to go pick it up. I've seen the owner and head machinist make a lot of his special tools for special jobs.
On the other hand, a shop in the next county up with one of the late/great fancy automated block machine charges a TON for block work.... no doubt they have the big bill to pay off.
For the OP, things out in the northern Rockies are not cheap for all sorts of stuff; housing costs are a lot higher than in southern Appalachians for example. And with shops few and far between, it is less of a price competitive situation, and I bet the work quantity is 'thinner' out there too. It is what it is in your locale.
On the other hand, a shop in the next county up with one of the late/great fancy automated block machine charges a TON for block work.... no doubt they have the big bill to pay off.
For the OP, things out in the northern Rockies are not cheap for all sorts of stuff; housing costs are a lot higher than in southern Appalachians for example. And with shops few and far between, it is less of a price competitive situation, and I bet the work quantity is 'thinner' out there too. It is what it is in your locale.
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