340/E85/D1SC/FItech1200 big hp SB guys step inside please!

[1mean340]

Hello everyone, I have been looking for information regarding the pushing of SBM limits with boost on a few other forums, seems to be more boosted guys here than anywhere else.

I am getting close to finishing up a build on my 70 challenger and I was hoping to get some input on the build, mainly looking for advice on how far I should be trying to push it power/boost wise bearing in mind it is mostly a street car that sees track time a few days a year. Here is the build...

1970 340 block, bored .030 over, Hughes stud girdle/ARP main studs, factory forged crank, Eagle H beam rods w/ ARP2000 bolts. I had Speed Pro forged pistons in the motor before, my machinist took a little bit off the top and milled a relief into them to get my C/R down to around 9:2. He told me they still have plenty meat and will hold up fine to boost. All machine work and rotating assembly was done by a machinist I know who does great work, holds a few Pro Stock records and has a stellar reputation for big HP builds so I am confident there.

W2 early LA exhaust pattern 'econo' heads flowing 295cfm at .600, ARP head studs, cometic gaskets, Mopar Performance rocker arms, Solid roller at .609 lift 242/[email protected] 112LSA, ported Indy intake

pump E85 fed via A1000 pump/voltage controller- 12AN to pump, 10AN to FPR, dual 6AN to T/B, 8AN return.
FItech 1200 EFI
MSD 6AL with locked out TSP distributor, going to have FItech control timing
1 7/8ths TTI headers, either a 3" round or 3.5" oval exhaust
eBay special CSX 31x12x3 front mount intercooler, 3" piping
eBay special 3 core aluminum radiator, FlowKooler water pump
Rad came with dual china-fans. May swap out for one high quality fan or try my luck with a mechanical fan
GM 140amp TuffStuff 1 wire mounted on D/side (i'll be finished welding the brackets next week)

Air fed via D1SC procharger. Found a main bracket on moparts, modified it and built my own rear bracket for it. Using my own custom Dayco tensioner setup, 8 rib. Mondo BOV. SDCE billet crank pulley mounted to an SFI balancer, unknown brand. Procharger low profile carb hat (yes, I know this will cost me some HP, can't fit anything else...yet anyway).

built 727 w/ manual valve body, Protorque 9" converter, 8 3/4 rear with 3.91's/1350 yoke, front mounted trans cooler.


Here are some pics of the progress. I'll get more up of the blower and alternator bracket assembly once I finish it up next weekend.

Car has power steering and brakes. Only lightening done is Weld wheels. I plan to run 12-14 PSI, somewhere in that neighborhood. DOn't really know what kind of power to expect, but I would LOVE if I could hit the high 600's-low 700's without worrying about cracking the block. Low 700's would probably be about the safe limit of my fuel system/EFI setup on E85.

 

[1mean340]

 

[1mean340]

before pic up top during test fit stage, total mess of an engine bay. Cleaning as much up as I can without going too crazy. Eventually, I want to pull this all out, replace the firewall (patched it up and bonded over it, but not really the way I like to do things), go with an aftermarket brake setup, maybe hydroboost, and run the Altercations K member my friend is selling me. Figure there is no point in replacing too much if a lot of it will just be replaced again anyway. No pics as of recent but I just bent new brake lines to clean it up a bit and I'm going to neaten up the whole wire harness when wire the fuel pump/fan/alternator/trunk mounted battery etc...

I know it seems like a contradiction with a boosted EFI build, but I am actually on a very tight budget. Most of these parts I have were lying around from old builds or cars I parted out. I think I have maybe 10k into this whole build so far. Cheaper than a Hellcat!

Can't wait to finish the transformation from the old 380hp J headed 340 to a boosted 600hp+ beast. High 9's might be dreaming in a full weight car like this while trying to keep the stock block alive, but I am going to do everything within reason to try to get there.

 

[Coyote Jack]

I think you will be looking at a fair bit more than 600 HP with that setup. I am going to guess that at 12 to 14 lbs of boost you will be up around the 800 HP area. I hope you have installed a rollbar and maybe a chute otherwise they will take one look at you and say get lost. Other than that, it looks like a very nice build and proof positive it can be done cheaply.

Jack

 

[T56MaxTorq]

Looking good! May look into half-filling the block with that much power. With a fuel cell In the back you also need a firewall between tank and the pass compartment.

 

[subcom]

Eager to hear about your tuning with the FITECH and E85. I'm running a single turbo blow thru on a 360 with the Fitech 1200 and E85 and timing control and am still working out bugs.

 

[1mean340]

Coyote Jack, that's what my machinist tells me as well. He said at 12-13 psi he thinks it would be over the 700hp mark. I have an old A1000 pump I was going to have refreshed by Aeromotive, that would be at its limits at 700hp on e85. They want $200 to rebuild it, so for that cost I'm half way to another pump. I'm looking into options now that may support a little more power to be safe. I don't ever intend to push this thing OVER the 700hp mark, but getting there with a large safety margin would be nice. Then the question is whether or not the FItech would safe at 700 crank hp.

T56MaxTorq, originally I had wanted to half fill the block but both my machinist, another engine builder friend of mine and a few other mopar engine gurus recommended against it saying that on these blocks the benefit would be marginal. I can't remember the specifics of what my machinist said, but it was something along the lines of that the lower bores on this block had enough meat that bore distortion should not be an issue, and that was the only benefit the half fill would have. The block is still my biggest concern with this whole build, but I have had a lot of experienced guys tell me these things could handle a lot more than what I'm throwing at it as long the rpm's stay low and it never sees detonation.

Sub com, I am really interested in hearing about your build and what kind of problems you have been having. Can you elaborate? I have heard some great success stories from e85/forced induction Fitech builds and other people saying, like you, that they could never get it right. I am pretty worried about this, tuning is NOT my expertise and I was actually planning on hiring a professional tuner to dyno tune the car and then learn what I have to so I can tweak it from there. Wondering if the supercharged may be a little easier to tune than the turbo with the turbo having a linear boost curve. Any tips you can give me or insight into the problems you are experiencing would be a huge help!

 

[1mean340]

As for the NHRA requirements, it's mostly a street car. I take it to the track a few times a year, but it's for rent outs that my friends do where the track officials look the other way on the tech inspections. I do plan on welding a cage in and taking care of all the other NHRA requirements just for safety though, but just working on getting it up and running first.

 

[o1heavy]

Looks good and will likely make great power really considering using the d1
With my 408
Got a few questions
Did you use two keys on the crank
And do you think mounting the procharger head A motor plate would have been easier

 

[Coyote Jack]

For your fuel pump needs you may want to look at a couple of Walbro 392's. They are cheap and have a real good reputation. Just make sure you buy real Walbro's and not the Chinese knock off's. from what I have been reading the FiTech 2X4 1200's will support about 1000 hp. I am not sure of the single 1200 actual ratings. You may want to talk to them as I am hearing stories that not all of their setups work well with boost. If it's any consolation I am looking at the 2X4 1200 setup for my blower. I had hoped for this year but now it looks like next year due to finances.

Jack

 

[Matts440]

Walbro or bosch 044 inline pumps, but like the Walbro there are cheap knock offs out there.

 

[T56MaxTorq]

I wouldn't spend 200 on the pump rebuild. I bought a new 750 aeromotive pump and ran it for about 4 hours and then it didn't run. I took it apart and found that a piece of metal had broken off of a retainer that separates the magnets. This chunk, about an inch long, had wedged itself between the armature and the magnets, it seized the pump, blowing the fuse. Put a bad taste in my mouth after that. Could have been 1 in a million but I mean come on, a cheap, dumb retainer that's glued to the case...not so sure of their quality control after that. I never called them, though I should have. I wanted to get my ride moving and not send a pump away after I took it apart. The 750 supported my e85 318 with 44lb injectors @ 10 lbs boost.

 

[subcom]

Sub com, I am really interested in hearing about your build and what kind of problems you have been having. Can you elaborate? I have heard some great success stories from e85/forced induction Fitech builds and other people saying, like you, that they could never get it right. I am pretty worried about this, tuning is NOT my expertise and I was actually planning on hiring a professional tuner to dyno tune the car and then learn what I have to so I can tweak it from there. Wondering if the supercharged may be a little easier to tune than the turbo with the turbo having a linear boost curve. Any tips you can give me or insight into the problems you are experiencing would be a huge help!

You have an intercooler. You may consider starting off with low boost and 91 or 93 pump or whatever you have in your neck of the woods. Like others have mentioned. Dual Walbros or the Boschs should have you covered for fuel delivery. I also think a supercharger will be easier to tune then a blow thru turbo app. If you go straight to E85, apply the same rule. Start with low boost and sneak up on your tune before you turn up the pressure. My issues are probably mostly my fault. But I'm controlling timing and doing boost and doing E85 all from the FITECH 1200. I had a couple of good runs on it before I added timing control and the FITECH did a great job of honoring my target AFRs under boost. Now that I'm controlling timing, I've introduced quite a few more variables and I have to start my tune over. Like you, I might end up going to a tuner or at least get some dyno time and play around with the tune before getting into the turbo too hard.

 

[T56MaxTorq]

I agree with subcom, while I don't have experience with fitech but with megasquirt, it helps to start off just controlling fuel (use mopar ignition or HEI) and get it idleing, then with the wastegste wide open, tune a little in the NA range, then play with the ignition control part and then start tipping your toes into boost.

 

[1mean340]

Thanks for the replies everyone! I was hoping to stick with a single pump, I ran dual walbro 255's on a procharged caprice I used to have and they worked great but just feel better with running one good pump. No need for hobbs switches and what not. I was looking into some of the Fuel Lab pumps, I like the idea that they have variable speed controllers built in and are E85 compatible. The magna fuel 4303 is another highly recommended pump for big power e85/boost applications, just don't know how it'll work for sustained street driving. I wish I could just buy a new A1000....cheaper than the other two choices, I already have the Aeromotive voltage controller and it would bolt right into my existing pump mount but I think 700 crank HP would be right at its limits on E85.

Right now I am trying to figure out what pulley to run to start with about 8-9 PSI With the 8" crank pulley procharger told me a 4.5" would be a good "place to start" for the higher boost numbers I was looking for (12-13) but the tech also said he didn't know how these LA motors responded to boost. I purchased a 4.75" pulley and will probably be starting with that, hopefully it'll get me the 8-9 PSI I was looking for.

Tomorrow I am going to drill and tap the manifold for the coolant bypass, finish welding up the alternator brackets, seal the intake up with the custom .120 intake gaskets I had made and make the blower tensioner idea I had work. Hopefully by the end of the day tomorrow I'll have it ready to drop in the car. Pics will be coming!

Mounting the GM 1 wire 140amp was a pain, the W2 heads I only have one bolt hole on the driver's side and it was way too inboard on the block to mount the alternator to. ended up welding up my own bracket that basically floats the alternator off the block with no direct mounting point to the block. It took some work to make solid, and it isn't too pretty but it works and puts it right where I wanted it. I could have made it look better, but I think I am going to tig weld something nicer up out of a aluminum at some point anyway so it's only temporary.

 

[1mean340]

sub com, thanks for the tuning tips! When you say switch to pump gas initially for low boost, are you suggesting this because it would ease the burden on the fuel system or because the Fitech wasn't working well with the E85?

I probably CAN run pump gas through this thing if I keep the boost low, I just really liked the idea of E85 partially because of the cost but mainly because I wouldn't have to worry about detonation nearly as much and it should keep the engine cooler in the summer. Things I don't like about E85 is its tendency to gum up/absorb moisture when sitting and the octane variances at the pump. A tuner I know said that with only 12-13 PSI, even filling up with the worst pump E85 shouldn't give me any problems with detonation and the FItech would adjust for the ethanol content through the AFR's. I may try to make a low boost tune for pump gas for the sole purpose of running during the winter months when I don't drive the car as often, to avoid the E85 from clogging injectors and what not.

 

[Matts440]

Not sure if you can wire it to a Fitech but I know if you wanted to switch methods and go with a Megasquirt you can wire in a flex fuel sensor from gm and the computer will sense and adjust to the e85 and adjust when you.just have regular gas.

 

[T56MaxTorq]

I believe e85 is closer is 85% alcohol in summer and closer to 75% in winter to help startups. Think about it this way, you're pumping in the same volume of fuel but if there is more gasoline than alcohol and if you're tuned for 85%, your afr is going to become more rich from the added gas, this will curb detonation from the slightly lower octane level. Temps are cooler in winter, intercooler is more effective. So unless you're on the razors edge of detonation with 85%, don't sweat it. And if you are, you should be mixing your own fuel or run straight alcohol. You can also pull a little bit more timing if you're worried.

 

[1mean340]

T56maxtorq, thanks for your input! It sounds like I should be OK then, with only 12-14psi of intercooled boost max and a 9.2 c/r, I shouldn't be anywhere close to the limits of e85 as long as I stay conservative on the timing.

 

[1mean340]

Getting VERY close to go time, think I'll be dropping the motor in the car next weekend and then it is just a matter of finishing the plumbing, wiring and some other odds and ends. Here is that monstrosity of a alternator bracket I welded up. the 140amp 1 wire was too thick to mount to the head, so I had to space it out from the head using this as the main anchoring point and then used a generic gm bracket for the front part. Definitely plan on making something else out of aluminum when I get the time, but this works for now.Also going to spend some time next weekend polishing the blower brackets, blower, crank pulley and replacing most of the exposed bolts with stainless or chromed (for the bolts that have to be grade 8). It's no show car, but i'm just anal engine bays lol

Next weekend I'll be building a tensioner bracket and hopefully dropping this heavy chunk of old junk in!

 

[subcom]

sub com, thanks for the tuning tips! When you say switch to pump gas initially for low boost, are you suggesting this because it would ease the burden on the fuel system or because the Fitech wasn't working well with the E85?

I probably CAN run pump gas through this thing if I keep the boost low, I just really liked the idea of E85 partially because of the cost but mainly because I wouldn't have to worry about detonation nearly as much and it should keep the engine cooler in the summer. Things I don't like about E85 is its tendency to gum up/absorb moisture when sitting and the octane variances at the pump. A tuner I know said that with only 12-13 PSI, even filling up with the worst pump E85 shouldn't give me any problems with detonation and the FItech would adjust for the ethanol content through the AFR's. I may try to make a low boost tune for pump gas for the sole purpose of running during the winter months when I don't drive the car as often, to avoid the E85 from clogging injectors and what not.

My thought was that it might be easier to tune the FITECH on regular pump gas at first since it's more documented and you'll probably get better support from the FITECH guys and the different forums. Get it running well on pump gas to establish a base line and then go to E85. The changes to the FITECH tune could be significant going from regular gas to E85 but you would at least know that everything works with 91/93 or whatever you have available in your area. My boosted E85 tune is getting closer but there just aren't a lot of people doing the same with the Fitech....or at least not advertising the fact that they are. Best of luck with the build. Should be a blast with the procharger.

 

[turbovan]

I have to disagree on the recommendation to tune first on pump gas especially since you've planned the build around e85 to begin with. Why go through the hassle of multiple tunes? You're still shooting for similar AFR's in respect to the wideband 02 readings, but with e85 you remove almost all worry of detonation. Use a conservative timing map to start, and once you get your fuel dialed in you can start adding timing back into the equation. E85 is a fantastic fuel to learn to tune with. If you are set on going with a professional tuner to start you should really get in contact with him now as his expertise might help ease your mind in terms of fuel type and fuel pumps.
Concerns of e85 fuel inconsistencies are valid, and I have seen huge differences in tanks here in AZ altering my AFR's a full point.
When it comes to fuel pumps I can completely understand your desire to run a single pump, but I have had great success with dual walbo pumps. Quiet, powerful, and reliable.

Can't wait to see updates as your tuning begins!

 

[T56MaxTorq]

To touch on this ^

I would say a conservative timing map is:

Confirm true engine timing is in sync with ECU

From idle vacuum to 0 psi/100kpa (which is WOT on a natural engine) the timing should be 33-36* total. So, the same timing curve as a natural eng.

Above that, in any level of boost, start pulling timing 2.5-3* per 1 psi.

Watch AFR and tune rich for e85.

When AFR is steadily rich through boost, slowly increase timing .5 at a time starting on the low psi side.

Adjust fuel simultaneously with timing (it will change AFR) and make small increments.

Repeat for full range of boost.

Depending on lots of variables, timing should be in the range of 1-1.5* drop per psi, and can even begin pulling timing at low boost, say >3psi, instead of at 0

One thing bad about e85 is that it is difficult to read the plugs to verify that no detonation is occurring and that the heat range isn't too high/low. May have to cut them open to thoroughly inspect the best one can. We're all leaning heavily on this AFR gauge and sometimes it's good To verify elsewhere and make certain the gauge and probe is installed correctly.

 

[Purpleyj]

I'm running fitech on a na 318 on 87 octane. The research that I have done says to add 30 % to cid on initial setup to run e85 through fitech. "Fitech owners group" on face book is a bunch of owners and tuners dealing with every fitech product. They even have a couple of the fitech employees as members.

 

[1mean340]

T56 and turbovan, thanks for the FiTECH tips! Just wondering, what plugs do you guys think I should be starting with? I was thinking one heat range colder as I'll probably be starting out with only 5-7psi with the pulley I am using now.


So I finally swung the engine in, blower setup completely finished with tensioner pulley/pulley bracket installed. Everything looks great, only concern is there is only an inch or so clearance between the tensioner and the 3" pipe from the blower to the intercooler. I'm hoping the motor won't torque that much on the schumacher poly locks, but if it does it is nothing a torque strap can't fix.

TTI headers...they look AWESOME, the tubes fit great but I am pretty pissed at the flanges. After 6 hours of myself and 540challenger fumbling with them we finally realized the reason why we could never get the final bolt in on either side at the same time was because the holes in the flange were drilled wrong. When I say wrong, I mean we had to cut the flange and pry the most forward primary tube out maybe 5/16ths of an inch to be able to bolt them up. Wasn't happy about cutting the flange on a set of headers that I paid extra for to have ceramic coated and polished up, but at that point there was no way I was pulling the engine and trans out to remove/return the header and I would have had to oval every hole out to shift it enough (If I tried just slotting the bolt whole of the tube in question it would have had to have been slotted so much I'd be into the primary tube).

Next step is plumbing. Wasn't happy with any of the possible routes to run my hoses, so I came up with something I think will work. I'll post pics soon. Also cooling, I am really tired of nothing fitting right without fab work so I was thinking of just going to a flex fan if I can fit it. Just wondering what you guys think about a flex fan cooling this thing while cruising in summer heat? I know E85 is supposed to run cool, but it is still 600 something boosted HP. I was also thinking of going to a Ford Taurus electric fan.