360 con. rod bolt sizes

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1wild&crazyguy said:
don't confuse my stance on torque plates, for what I'm doing they are used, but I punish my sht and rev it higher than the average person.

Did the factory do it?

I'm saying... for what he's doing he need not worry or spend an extra $100 for the plate.
but it's his decision, which if he would just make up his mind we could move on.

do or don't.
Click to expand...

PLATES ARE OUT

Just picked up my block from the machine shop.

Honing is done. Looks good so far.

Starting new thread on h. balancer.

Thank a million for all the great support! Moving west.8)
 
wild, dont take the moon the wrong way. Was trying to convey that it was a question and not in need of pissing match. So unless your the dr giving me a physical i could do with out anything up the moon. :hiding:

It started simply as my opinion of the pistons and not being thrilled with them. I have no problems with kb forged. Just not a fan of the hypers. any brand of hypers for that matter. To each their own.

The plate was a curiousity question. Which is answered and doesnt matter cause its already bored and done.

Yep i had alot of compression with the 650 lift. It ran 10.7's in 3200 # demon with me in it.

to 360mopar. I was under the impreesion you wanted to make some hp when talking about rod bolts and what not. You should be just fine as others have said with just new bolts in the reconditioned rods. Your not going to make such power to hurt them with stock j heads. Also can very much understand on being on a budget.

Also another thing to consider for long term. Its not cheap. But long term gains might be worth it. Just an idea. But you could internally balance the back half of the motor with heavy metal, and use stock weighted harmonic balancer on the front.

The only reason i mention it is it can sometimes be easier to swap/trade/borrow torque converters. Then you dont have to worry about it being a balanced convertor. I have found many good converters for cheap cause someone bought them for their big block only to find it stall way to high for their application, if your running a 727. Also if it is balanced you can just knock the weight off of it.

Food for thought.
 
no big.

I figure when someone uses an icon like that.. they wanna kick dirt around.

When I'm building something 'stock or mild or budget', I'm obviously not lookin for max power, more like 'power per dollar', so a 'milliprik of thou' isn't bothering me at all.

Anything I'm trying to squeeze the most out of, I use a torque plate.

in the end it's all down to 'cubic dollar'.


It's all JMO
 
I own my own torque plates for this reason: The single biggest loss of power and effficiency is ring seal. It is much more important than quench, porting, balance, square decking... It's that big a deal. In fact, just with changes in honing finish in an over-the-winter experimental 360 mopar circle track engine, more than 40hp were gained. And in case you think it's a big deal, the engine was already making over 480 with a hydraulic cam and the NASCAR spec 2bbl. No changes but honing finish. Never mind sealing surface distortion. The top of the bore distorts between .0005 and .0015" when it's done properly... Out of round by that much means serious leakage by the rings as they try to go past the distortions and changes in the end gaps. That is scientific fact. Iron plates should be only used for iron heads but typically that's what the shops have and use. The real anal ones have the exact head gasket and the bolts you will use to get it as close as possible.
 
moper said:
I own my own torque plates for this reason: The single biggest loss of power and effficiency is ring seal. It is much more important than quench, porting, balance, square decking... It's that big a deal. In fact, just with changes in honing finish in an over-the-winter experimental 360 mopar circle track engine, more than 40hp were gained. And in case you think it's a big deal, the engine was already making over 480 with a hydraulic cam and the NASCAR spec 2bbl. No changes but honing finish. Never mind sealing surface distortion. The top of the bore distorts between .0005 and .0015" when it's done properly... Out of round by that much means serious leakage by the rings as they try to go past the distortions and changes in the end gaps. That is scientific fact. Iron plates should be only used for iron heads but typically that's what the shops have and use. The real anal ones have the exact head gasket and the bolts you will use to get it as close as possible.
Click to expand...

Moper,
I've already picked up my block. It's home now. There is no one at the shop I just left that subscribed to your belief system in plating the block top prior to honing. Just don't think they had the plates.
I'm hoping that my decision to not take it somewhere they would have plate bolted the block prior to honing wasn't too costly a hp mistake.
Hard to believe Moper, but numbers don't lie.
Maybe on the next one.

Thanks again.
 
Why do you have to come in and throw a wrench in the gears? [moper]

What were all those guys doing back in the day without their torque plates...

omg dude, seriously...you need to differentiate the 2=your racing eng vs his 'mild' street motor.
I've done quite a few without plates, they all run great, one 225 has over 234k on it, not all shops have every frickin plate for ever frickin motor do they? does that mean all of those motors are junk?

Thats a lot of junk STILL running around.
 
1wild&crazyguy said:
Why do you have to come in and throw a wrench in the gears? [moper]

What were all those guys doing back in the day without their torque plates...

omg dude, seriously...you need to differentiate the 2=your racing eng vs his 'mild' street motor.
I've done quite a few without plates, they all run great, one 225 has over 234k on it, not all shops have every frickin plate for ever frickin motor do they? does that mean all of those motors are junk?

Thats a lot of junk STILL running around.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the support 1wcg.

I do want to weigh all options out there. If the plates were avail. at my shop I went to....ya, I'da spent the x-tra 100.00 to not be wondering about leaving hp lying back on the table.
I'm confident at least with the money I am spending I will have a healthy little motor for what it is.........and maybe then some.

I've turned into a thread-slinger today...I'm happy with the feedback.8)
 
I'm in total agreement with Moper. It doesn't matter that the factory didn't use them. They did that because the deal in volume. They would never make money if they torque plate honed every block. Hell, they don't seem to make money even though they don't, but that's another thread entirely.

Do they work without being torque plate honed? YES, of course they do. But they help make the difference between an engine that runs GOOD and an engine that runs GREAT. I don't care if you're flogging it on the racetrack, cruising to the local drive-in, whatever. Mild motors can and do benefit from race technology. Just look at some of the new engines out there.

If you and your machine shop don't believe it, you've all got your heads in the sand.

I'm done ranting now.
 
lilcuda said:
I'm done ranting now.
Click to expand...

Good, cause you're going off the deep end for no reason.

Of corse street motors can benefit from race technology, look at the slant 6..
you can back cut valves, cross drill cranks, change induction, full grove bearings, mill blocks and heads, lighten pistons, change piston rod combos all together for diff rod ratio's, reverse directional pistons, polish this and that, make crank scrapers[like I did].
It all helps or they wouldn't do it
but in the end none of that is/was necessary to keep them[factory mild/wild motors] running strong 200k+ miles with many factory mills still running today.

It's not a 'have to' & 'must do' thing.
It's a 'builders choice' & 'per app' thing.

and even a JMO thing.
 
moper said:
Iron plates should be only used for iron heads but typically that's what the shops have and use.
Click to expand...


I'm going to use Edelbrock heads. Am I better off using an iron torque plate or none at all? I know the machine shop I plan to use has an iron plate but I doubt that they have an aluminum one.
 
lilcuda said:
I'm in total agreement with Moper. It doesn't matter that the factory didn't use them. They did that because the deal in volume. They would never make money if they torque plate honed every block. Hell, they don't seem to make money even though they don't, but that's another thread entirely.

Do they work without being torque plate honed? YES, of course they do. But they help make the difference between an engine that runs GOOD and an engine that runs GREAT. I don't care if you're flogging it on the racetrack, cruising to the local drive-in, whatever. Mild motors can and do benefit from race technology. Just look at some of the new engines out there.

If you and your machine shop don't believe it, you've all got your heads in the sand.

I'm done ranting now.
Click to expand...

I'm on board with the idea that they do help. A 20hp difference in my case seems a little far fetched though. Providing that the 20hp figure is a true quantitative gain amount, then of course it's worth it when calculating $ per horse power. Again my shop just did not have the plates; furthermore, they found the idea to be not as critical with this type of engine. Maybe they should read "Mopers" post on 40hp gain with the race engine.
For those still following this thread;
Can I still take the already honed block to another shop and have it re-honed with torque plates?
If so they would probably have to charge to add plates and re-hone. Sounding like another 250.00 if I had to guess.
Could they tell me how out of round the cyl. are once the t. plates are installed. If so, I would like to know how much they would be removing for the $ I would be spending.

Lilcuda, My own head is not in the sand on this one. I've done my due dillegence in research thus far. The end result will be dictated by $'s plus logistics. At some point you have to make the decision to pull the trigger based on $ & Log. and make the call. Budget allowing, I will surely use the plates on future engines I intend to flog.

All input appreciated.
 
1wild&crazyguy said:
there are aluminum plates for aluminum heads.
Click to expand...

If you can absorb the cost when calculating the "Big Picture" the by all means go for it.

This has been a good thread. The gloves may have came out a couple of times, but that where you find where the rubber meets the road. Guess you have to stir the pot to see whats in there. :cheers:
 
360moparjunkie said:
Can I still take the already honed block to another shop and have it re-honed with torque plates?
If so they would probably have to charge to add plates and re-hone. Sounding like another 250.00 if I had to guess.
Could they tell me how out of round the cyl. are once the t. plates are installed. If so, I would like to know how much they would be removing for the $ I would be spending.
Click to expand...
This would depend heavily on how much material would be removed to bring it into round. Having already been honed to final size, further removal could make piston-to-bore clearance excessive. If it's just a few high spots, you may come out better off.

Disclaimer: I'm not a machinist, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn several years ago.
 
Don't worry about it. Its honed and done. You'll be just fine!

Just make sure the cylinder walls are very, very clean before you assemble. Wipe them out with wd40 or ATF and some paper towels until the towels are clean. You'd be surprised ho many times it'll take to get it really clean.
Also check out the rest of the block cleanliness. We would wash and scrub them with dawn dish soap and hot water. All galleries and internal surfaces. If you do this, just have some WD40 to hit the cylinder walls asap before the rust starts. Then blow dry. You can't have a block too clean.
 
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