440 break in noise from timing cover....we think....be gentle!

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Muswagon

Muswagon

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So, finally able to try and break in my 440.

Nothing overly crazy. Eddie heads, flat tappet cam, fancy dancy double roller timing chain

Ran for seconds and heard a racket coming from the timing area. Shut it down. Took off belt to eliminate water pump, still made noise, again only ran for seconds

I used a stock timing cover, with a summit double roller timing chain, and I am not sure anymore what brand of mechanical fuel pump

Anything obvious I should look for before I do a full tear down to see what i did wrong?

I have heard non factory crank pully bolts can contact cover? I think they were factory bolts but cannot confirm

Can a double roller timing set hit anything in a 440? As in, can it contact the cover (cover went on nicely at install)?

Can a fuel pump lever hit anything?

Just looking for 'simple' things to check for minimal tear down vs pulling engine and lighting everything on fire
 
Brian built a 383 that was ticking at the timing cover. Broke in the cam on the run stand.

I looked at it pretty seriously could not determine the cause. They were not too worried about it and put the fresh engine in the car and ran it.

Have no idea what was causing the tick, but now that they have some time on it, it ticks no more.

If it were mine I would cut the oil filter open and see what's in it. Want to make sure things are running clean for the long haul.

☆☆☆☆☆
 
Push some cardboard down behind the pulley to see if it clears the bolts.....If ok, remove the fuel pump to see if it is the problem. Prime carb through air vents to run for a few seconds.
 
One problem I should have mentioned and this might be the issue..... The dizzy intermediate shaft is a new Melling one, but the bushing was already in there and was brand new. I did not verify if they worked well together. That was done almost last because I was priming the engine with the long hex shaft/drill dealio.

anyway, a friend who was helping me installed the shaft and I seem to remember it needed alot of help to get in there even after the bottom hex engaged the pump, as opposed to when I took the old one out and watching installs on youtube where it just slips in.

if this is too tight, what would that sound like?

Sorry this is where a noob has no business building a 440....however....can guarantee you I would never make this mistake again...

I am going to verify the pulley bolts with cardboard as suggested, and try the fuel pump quick start (without)

I should have mentioned the dizzy shaft but it didn't hit me until I watched a few installs and they go in like butter
 
Muswagon said:
I should have mentioned the dizzy shaft but it didn't hit me until I watched a few installs and they go in like butter
Click to expand...

There's a tool to install and size a new bushing correctly. Check the FSM.
A backward oil slinger will make a lot of racket if the concave side is installed inward as it would have contact with the timing chain.

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With your fancy dancy roller chain was there a Torrington bearing setup that needed to go behind the cam gear? If so..did it get installed....and correctly? Just thinking out loud here.
 
Sooo, sheepishly I will say I did not know that a torrington bearing was a thing, I assume it is a thrust bearing by nature?

This is the set I bought, no bearing included or mentioned Summit Racing SUM-G6604R-B Summit Racing™ Billet Steel Timing Sets | Summit Racing

Searching more I see this set which is similar but includes a bearing.... DODGE Summit Racing SUM-G6606R-B Summit Racing™ Billet Steel Timing Sets | Summit Racing

Ugh....what happens when I install door number one with no bearing?

It is a flat tappet cam if that makes a difference/if needed with FT vs roller
 
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Muswagon said:
Sooo, sheepishly I will say I did not know that a torrington bearing was a thing, I assume it is a thrust bearing by nature?

This is the set I bought, no bearing included or mentioned Summit Racing SUM-G6604R-B Summit Racing™ Billet Steel Timing Sets | Summit Racing

Searching more I see this set which is similar but includes a bearing.... DODGE Summit Racing SUM-G6606R-B Summit Racing™ Billet Steel Timing Sets | Summit Racing

Ugh....what happens when I install door number one with no bearing?

It is a flat tappet cam if that makes a difference/if needed with FT vs roller
Click to expand...
Sorry..no experience with either of those sets. Door number 1 is single bolt and #2 is a 3 bolt. I would think if #1 required the bearing it would be included but again ...no personal experience. I saw the bearing get left out on a BB build...allowed the cam to move and lost a couple lobes. I'm just thinking here. Maybe give Summit a call to make sure a bearing is not required on the single bolt roller chain kit. Hope ya get it figured out and it's an easy fix!
 
So checked easy stuff first, but did not start it with fuel pump off which was dumb…

Anyway, fuel pump bolts are correct so no weird contact. The lever on fuel pump looks fine

Took off oil filter and took element out, I don’t see any metal, I have not actually cut the element wide open yet tho

Correct crank pulley bolts so no contact

Took off timing cover and slinger was installed correct, however, even correct man that close…


I don’t see anything behind the timing gear but I have not actually taken it off yet

I tried to get a pic of the chain, and a pic of the slinger on and man it’s rally close but it’s for sure on correct, put on the other way it’s right on the chain

IMG_2181.jpeg
 
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Bewy said:
Push some cardboard down behind the pulley to see if it clears the bolts.....If ok, remove the fuel pump to see if it is the problem. Prime carb through air vents to run for a few seconds.
Click to expand...
Bewy said:
Push some cardboard down behind the pulley to see if it clears the bolts.....If ok, remove the fuel pump to see if it is the problem. Prime carb through air vents to run for a few seconds.
Click to expand...
The fuel pump on a big block runs off a lobe on the cam, it is not inside the timing cover
 
I know, I was meaning in case it’s the fuel pump itself making the noise if that’s even possible.
 
You might pull the plugs out, take that slinger off the crank, and spin the engine with a remote switch. Listen for the noise.(?)

I believe it's possible to miss the push rod with the fuel pump arm on install. If that were the case, I can't imagine the pump feeding fuel.
 
No worries on the torrington bearing. If one was not included with the timing set, then the cam sprocket was not machined for one. They were not factory equipment anyway and I've never thought they were a good idea. Just something else to make you write a bigger check that can actually come apart and ruin an otherwise perfectly good engine. And I've not seen anyone else address it but yes, the intermediate shaft should be a slip fit into the bushing. There are two types of bushings. The factory type, which after installed, requires the burnishing tool too properly size it, or the aftermarket style which is the correct size when installed.
 
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Also check behind the chain, I have seen some blocks with a bigger casting line, and the chain will rub on it.
 
Pulling the engine, what looks like contact marks have me beyond confused as they are right below the first main cap. Best to pull at this point. Wondering if the windage tray edges are getting whacked as that is what it sounds kinda like. I believe this is one reallllly learns so I am taking it in stride
 
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Pulled engine before weekend. Had a good look around. Definitely had some debris in there that the bearings took up, nothing major and for sure not the noise. I clearly failed at cleaning...

Anyway, everything looks fine except one thing, the fuel pump pushrod.

Both ends are good, eccentric on cam looks perfect, fuel pump lever is perfect.

The sides are strange. At one end of it the sides just look polished as they would going in an out of a bore.

At the other end though the sides look scored. I dried it off and put it back in and it felt rough going into the bore.

I knew nothing of 440's building this and I probably should have got a new pushrod? Anyone have one make noise?

I also did not like how tight the oil pump drive is. Reading past comments I knew nothing about a mopar bushing needing to be reamed/burnished. The engine had a brand new mopar bushing and i used a new melling drive. When say it was tight I mean toight... I had to tap it out after I took off the oil pump. I will install the bushing that came with the melling drive, its loose uninstalled so I am hopefull it will be ok once squished in block.

Could a drive gear/shaft that is too tight make a racket? No damage to the cam gear, drive gear or shaft that I can see

I get some pics up of the fuel pump rod later
 
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