440 Won't start syndrome

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Mopar King

Mopar King

Beginner / Need of Help
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Hi, I am having a small problem and been trying to figure this out with my dad but have hit a small wall on it. maybe someone can shed some light in this matter.:banghead:

We are having trouble starting up the 440. It seem to be backfiring through the carb. I checked and recheck the timing going from 10 degrees which didn't start, 8 to 7 degrees which starts but backfires then shuts off and now 5 degrees and still backfires, it won't run. I also notice 2 small things that maybe it might not run. the fuel filter doesn't fill half way it stays like a quarter of the way and to me the carburetor doesn't seem to be shooting enough fuel.

unless it is the Fuel pump (original to the car) that has to be replaced. Can a vacuum cause backfiring like the pcv not connected can a spark plug wire not connected be the cause of a backfire also, that has been going through my head with the Accel wires .

What are the symptoms of backfiring through the carb.

Here is what we did

- I did check the timing and left it on 5 Degrees before top dead center.
- 1# cylinder is all the way up
- it is on the compression stroke meaning that Air is pushing out of the hole
- distributor has not been moved, unbolted or removed because it started before
- Check and recheck all Spark Plug wires being the order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
- going counter clockwise
- New Spark Plugs + Accel Wires
- New Rotor and Distributor cap
- Gas in tank Premium
- new Clear fuel filter (so that i can see if it is shooting gas and if clean)
- New Holley Carter Thermoquad # 64-1436
- Battery charged


If anything i wrote is unclear please ask and i will try to correct it and will try my best to describe my problem. :newb:
 
RETARDING timing seldom helps a backfire problem.

A huge vacuum port, like the PCV or power brake fitting unhooked will definately add to problem

You can make some "quickie" tests. Unhook the fuel line, crank the engine with fuel hose into a can, and just look for a reasonable good strong flow.

Any chance the carb is dirty/ gummed up?

Any chance you have a damaged / open/ misadjusted valve?

Might run a compression or better, leakdown test. Leakdown testers are easy to make, just google "homemade leakdown tester"

Low ignition voltage, IE bad coil, damaged coil wire, or rotor or cap can cause backfiring, AS CAN damaged (open) plug wire(s)
 
Something is definetly happening out of time! 10 deg BTDC isn't enough to cause a backfire. Bad coil won't cause backfire because it only fires when its told to by the distributor or module. Remember the coil fires all 8 cyls(assuming its distributor ignition) so it wont cause a problem in just 1 or 2 cyls. The fact that its popping back through the carb means you have combustion when the valve(s) are open. Make sure the dist & wires are correct & timing isn't 180 deg off. Adjust as needed. If its got points, make sure they're set correctly. Remember, dwell affects timing. Next make sure you have no mechanical issues like a broken valve spring or stuck valve. Make sure the mechanical advance is working correctly in the dist too.
 
- a cracked distributor cap can do it

- has the car been sitting a long time? carbs can get stuck floats / etc they varnish up after a while
 
hello again 67dart273 it feels like you are my online mechanic since the other problem with the 318 :D. haven't tested the voltage output since i don't have a meter but i am going to get one (just have to get the right one before jumping the gun) + have to stop jumping from car to car:toothy8:




- distributor cap and Rotor are New but have switched to the old cap and still the same.
- thermoquad carburetor is brand new, no dirt or gummed up and car hasn't been sitting to long, was starting when I parked her in the garage and started to clean her up
- I don't think it could be a loose timing chain because i didn't hear it when the car was on but you never know.
- no broken valve springs, no stuck valve
- Distributor is pointing at number 1 and wires are correct - counter-clockwise
- we did tried to turn it over a couple of times to see if the piston is all the way up + 5 Degrees BTDC, rotor pointing to #1 spark plug wire and that air was blowing out of the whole #1 Spark plug = they are all on the mark



I haven't check are if the valves are closed. Im guessing #1 cylinder's Valves. guess it wouldn't hurt to take the valve cover off and look to see if they are closed at 5 degrees. if they are not close what should i do to get them close, turn to a lesser timing, any info on the valves that you guy can send me to maybe a link.

I haven't tried retarding the timing maybe that might work as well. I went from:

10 BTDC and it didn't want to fire
7 BTDC and it did fire after a few cranks but shuts off
5 BTDC and it does fire alittle more quicker but same issue
 
I have a similar problem with a 383 :banghead:
Sorry to hyjack the thread, but it looks like a similar problem so it might help both of us
Does yours do this

[ame="http://youtu.be/w50TpfQhVoM"]http://youtu.be/w50TpfQhVoM[/ame]





It tries to start, but when you let go of the key it stops and "tries to run backwards" spurting fuel out of the carby.
This is a 2nd hand engine with new intake, so I havent had it running before.
Had timing cover off and dots line up on timing gears, looks reasonably new.
I have tried 3 different carbys. 2 x edelbrock750 and 1 x holley 850 with the same results.
Tried a different fuel pump - same problem
It has a new hei dissy, new leads, new plugs, new mini starter, new coil, new battery.
I have checked timing at TDC with piston, spark plug out.
Checked rockers all moving nicely
Compression test 115 all cylinders
Time for help.

Dave
 
I bought the car and it was running and starting. nothing done to engine internally like cams or anything like that.

I just bought the new items listed above to clean it up, mostly normal stuff.


Dave, no problem on the hijack, more power and knowledge to us + trying to describe in detail my problem - maybe other people may have the same problem and this may help them . It does almost the same thing like in your video as well. It wants to start but doesn't. I think i also heard a pop on your exhaust muffler in the beginning of the video or is that just me.
 
Mopar King said:
I haven't tried retarding the timing maybe that might work as well. I went from:

10 BTDC and it didn't want to fire
7 BTDC and it did fire after a few cranks but shuts off
5 BTDC and it does fire alittle more quicker but same issue
Click to expand...

You ARE retarding the timing. Are you sure you are reading the marks correctly?

Going from 10BTC to 5 BTC is going in the retard direction

Makes no real sense that it starts better at 5* than 10
 
You need to pull the valve covers and make sure that all the valves are closed when they are supposed to be. could have jumped a tooth if the timing chain is loose. Any idea how many miles are on the engine? it could be a clue to how worn things might be. I have also seen the outer rings of stock balancers slip on the rubber. Maybe what you think is 5 degrees could be way off. Keep this in mind, it will only backfire thru the carb if an intake valve is open when spark is introduced. Like wise if it backfired through the exhaust, this would mean that it fired while an exhaust valve was open.
 
Sounds like it could be either the timing chain or the distributor the way it blowing back thru the carb. My experience has been that even with a huge vacuum leak you wouldn't get the blowing back thru the carb like that. You will get pressure on the intake and exhaust side, if you want to be positive use something to go thru the spark plug hole and feel the piston and check your wiriing after that. I agree with Lonewolf it definetly souns like timing or possibly dwell. Try setting the points with a feeler gauge and then set the dwell. Good Luck
 
I just pulled the timing cover on mine to check the gears
It looks like a new JP Performance timing gear set.
All lined up nicely, nothing wrong here.
Just heard from a mate that he had the same problem.
Ended up being the ignition switch. After cranking with the key it fired then he let go of the key, lost power in the run position long enough to stall the engine. Then it would regain power and fire in the wrong spot.
Hope this makes some sense.
After I put the front back on the motor im looking at my ignition switch.

Dave
 
Check vaccumm advance to see if it has a hole in it.
This will cause your problems.
 
womanator said:
Check vaccumm advance to see if it has a hole in it.
This will cause your problems.
Click to expand...

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...........NO........... It should run just fine with the vacuum advance disconnected, or if it has a hole in it.
 
check the valves while my dad turn the engine by hand a few times to make sure they are closed and not moving. don't know much about valve but i saw a video that explains alittle and they showed me when they are closed and open. they are closed and felt no movement when timing it to 15 degrees B.T.D.C. and added a new set of points and gapped to .019 like the book and still nothing.

I don't think the balancer moved because it actually tells me where is Top dead center and the #1 piston is all the way up until you go into After then it lowers back down.

I haven't check the coil, im going to play with the timing again and set the point again in case i have something wrong.

I am not sure but we are suspecting a vacuum connection or a timing issue. so close to start but still shoots thru the carb. going to go over the steps again
 
FIXED :D

After checking and double checking everything a million times
Replaced the new coil with an old one out of the drag car
Fired straight up. I also increased idle a couple of turns before starting and then backed it off after it started.

Hope this helps.

Dave

[ame="http://youtu.be/GlRFRgkSWNo"]http://youtu.be/GlRFRgkSWNo[/ame]
 
This HAS TO BE

either

ignition timing

camshaft timing

or a valve (open) problem

"Rig" a way to get air pressure into each cylinder. Google around it simply is NOT THAT DIFFICULT to build yourself a leak down tester, but even getting air in there will allow you to listen ---with each cylinder at TDC ready to fire -- for leaking air out the intake and exhaust.

Look at the dist. rotor, and move the balancer back and forth "feeling" for the slack in the chain until the rotor "just doesn't move". You should not be able to move the balancer more than 10* which indicates a worn possible slipped cam sprocket.

You can get SOME idea of whether cam timing is correct by looking for "split overlap." You do this by bringing the timing marks up to TDC, but with no6 ready to fire (both valves closed, or compression on your finger on no6) At this point BOTH valves of no1 will be open, one opening, one closing. They should be "close" to equal, and you do have to use some judgement with this, as modern cams do not exhibit true "split overlap."

To make sure the dist. is in correct, bring no1 around, with your finger in the hole, feel for compression, and as soon as you start to feel compression, look at the marks coming up. Set the marks NOT at TDC, but WHERE YOU WANT initial timing, IE 10BTC, 15 BTC, etc.

Next drop in the distributor, I always take the cap and scribe a line on the top rim of the housing to index the no1 plug tower. RETARD the dist, then bring back towards no1 until the points just open, or if breakerless, until the reluctor wheel tip is in the center of the pickup coil.

THIS METHOD if you do it right, should fire the engine WITH NO FUSSING with timing.
 
67Dart273 said:
"Rig" a way to get air pressure into each cylinder. Google around it simply is NOT THAT DIFFICULT to build yourself a leak down tester, but even getting air in there will allow you to listen ---with each cylinder at TDC ready to fire -- for leaking air out the intake and exhaust.


You can get SOME idea of whether cam timing is correct by looking for "split overlap." You do this by bringing the timing marks up to TDC, but with no6 ready to fire (both valves closed, or compression on your finger on no6) At this point BOTH valves of no1 will be open, one opening, one closing. They should be "close" to equal, and you do have to use some judgement with this, as modern cams do not exhibit true "split overlap."

To make sure the dist. is in correct, bring no1 around, with your finger in the hole, feel for compression, and as soon as you start to feel compression, look at the marks coming up. Set the marks NOT at TDC, but WHERE YOU WANT initial timing, IE 10BTC, 15 BTC, etc.

Next drop in the distributor, I always take the cap and scribe a line on the top rim of the housing to index the no1 plug tower. RETARD the dist, then bring back towards no1 until the points just open

THIS METHOD if you do it right, should fire the engine WITH NO FUSSING with timing.
Click to expand...

So what your saying in the last step is - to make it toward the #1 in the compression stroke and timing marks where ever I like but not at top dead center. Is this with Distributor On the car or removed the Distributor? Got confused with the last paragraph.

Does it also matter where #1 is on the Distributor cap?


Im going to have to take another look at the valves again with my dad and do #6 this time while looking at #1s reaction, there isn't alot of options left. switched Spark plug wires, checked a few vacuums and change coil and went thru the list of ideas. It has to be the valves and that is screwing my timing. doing a search for the leakdown test on google and youtube as well.
 
When you set up the distributor, do NOT put the engine at TDC. Put the timing marks --which we hope you checked-- where it is that you want initial timing.

Then either install the dist. if it is not, or move it so that the points just opened from retard to advance, OR move the dist (on breakerless) so that the star wheel is centered in the pickup coil.

This will cause it to fire close to where you want initial time

Does NOT matter where no1 is. This can happen if the intermediate shaft (oil pump drive) is not installed by the book. Simply plug the no1 wire in wherever the rotor points.
 
67 Dart273.
If you vacumm advance has a hole in it,your timing will shift depending on how big of a hole it might have.
Think of it as a vacumm port being open.
I had a 72 challenger that would not run and it turned out to be a vacumm advance can.

Lets see.
Terry mentored me in tuning.
IMGP2324.jpg


Rich show'd me a little about clutch's
Tell me what he's doing with the clutch in the staging lanes
IMGP2328.jpg


Here's another clue.
IMGP2326.jpg


Getting the Hot Rod off the track after a 3 second pass.
IMGP2329.jpg


Yea it's only a 1000 ft pass.

Killing time with Jim before his pass.
IMGP2332.jpg


IMGP2336.jpg


Yep,don't ever listen to me again.
I guess I'll just stay in my slow world.
1st time I have mentioned any of this.
 
I bet I get a bunch of crap at my home track about this.
 
womanator said:
I bet I get a bunch of crap at my home track about this.
Click to expand...

well it doesn't really matter how much crap you get, the point being you have some heavy hitting tutors.

he's setting the clutch plate gap.

the way i see it is there is only one way to get fire up thru the carburator and that is an intake valve is open and there is a spark in some cylinder somewhere so finding the reason will certainly help out the cause a bunch.
 
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