For the extra fuel economy, I'd use an overdrive transmission
5.9 Magnum Dart
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JoeDust451
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I never heard "squat" untill i started this project, heck it was after i bought the engine i started hearing about this, so just be aware of it, the castings on these magnum heads were "thin" between the seats, cracking was more common on the 360s then the 318s (i think do to more heat from the larger bore), if you can find a lower miled engine that runs good & you hear it run, then spend the 500.00 for it, otherwize, i would'nt spend over 250.00 or so for a complete one that you can't hear run, but your sure it isn't messed up or spun a bearing, i'll admit, i'm impatient, i paid 300.00 for mine, but the guy held on to it for 2 yrs. when they pulled it from a wrecked truck from his neighbor, so he knew it ran good, other then the heads being cracked, i got lucky with the rest, good short block, no sludge anywhere, still had decent looking oil in it too, the girl rolled the truck & died in the wreck from what he told me, he then bought the engine/trans & transfer case a few months later.
JoeDust451
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I had 2.76s in it, just got through installing 3.73s, the tranny is a stock 904, not sure of mileage as it isn't street legal yet, but i'm not really concerned too much on that, if i can muster 16+ on the highway i'll be thankfull, my goal is to run 'fast", i'll be beefing up the tranny some, then install a 2500 stall & the bottle, blow a 100-125 shot through it, if i can get an 11.99 on the sauce i'm good :-D.
Haha. Yeah power isn't that big of a deal with mine. The car has always been my daily driver and that's what I'm going to continue doing with it. I'm starting college next fall so I'm going to be driving a LOT more than I do now so mileage is a big deal. 25+ mpg combined would be friggin sweet. I like the idea of EFI because it seems to be better on mileage plus it'd be nice not having to let my car warm up, or have remote start
octanejunkie
Mopar Padawan
+1 on this
JoeDust451
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If he runs a 2.76 gear, he won't need OD, alot cheaper too.
Sinister, if power isn't that big of a deal but mileage is, then why are you installing a larger engine "that'll have MORE power & use MORE gas" lol??
Just my 2-cents on Magnum heads; it's a crapshoot, from all I've heard on the cracking.
My Valiant has a 5.9 Magnum with no APPARENT head cracks. I run 10 pounds of boost from a Vortech blower, and have 185-195 psi on a compression test and it uses no coolant, so for now, it looks like no cracks. I also have a 2003 Dakota pickup with 182,000 miles on it, and it uses no coolant, either. The heads have never been off it.
But, I'm watchful.... it may be coming. (the cracks)
Some 28"-tall tires and a 2.76 gear are okay for higway driving. That's 2,595 rpm at 75mph + converter slippage, if my computer is right. 2,422 at 70... not bad.
The O.D. installation in an A-Body, in particular, is a project for an experienced fabricator with a lot of time.... Third members are easy to change.
I 'd forget the overdrive they apparently have high parasitic losses. See http://www.smrtrans.com/ ) If you're never gonna race the car, that might not matter to you.
Like I said; just my 2-cents, and overpriced, at that...rofilel:
My Valiant has a 5.9 Magnum with no APPARENT head cracks. I run 10 pounds of boost from a Vortech blower, and have 185-195 psi on a compression test and it uses no coolant, so for now, it looks like no cracks. I also have a 2003 Dakota pickup with 182,000 miles on it, and it uses no coolant, either. The heads have never been off it.
But, I'm watchful.... it may be coming. (the cracks)
Some 28"-tall tires and a 2.76 gear are okay for higway driving. That's 2,595 rpm at 75mph + converter slippage, if my computer is right. 2,422 at 70... not bad.
The O.D. installation in an A-Body, in particular, is a project for an experienced fabricator with a lot of time.... Third members are easy to change.
I 'd forget the overdrive they apparently have high parasitic losses. See http://www.smrtrans.com/ ) If you're never gonna race the car, that might not matter to you.
Like I said; just my 2-cents, and overpriced, at that...
rofilel:JoeDust451
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Bill, i agree with you on the OD for someone on a tight budget as Sinister, they can get pricey, & IMO its not worth the return in the end for the cost & labor involved, a 2.76 3rd. member can be had for a whopping 50.00 bucks, i think theres even 2.55s out there too.
Hey bill, what's all done to your magnum?
Hey bill, what's all done to your magnum?
I'm in a fight with myself. What I want is an engine with 600 hp, 40 mpg, and good for 500,000 miles but that's not reasonable...
Since I can't have all three I'll go with mileage and reliability. I'm pretty much open to suggestions at this point.
Joe, what would you recommend?
Since I can't have all three I'll go with mileage and reliability. I'm pretty much open to suggestions at this point.
Joe, what would you recommend?
Thanks for askin'.... It's a 360 Magnum that has a practically stock short block and heads. The only mods to the heads are some very minimal pocket porting and a 3-angle valve job; no gasket matching or other porting. The short block has an aftermarket cam, and that's it.
Here's a rundown...
Stock shortblock pistons, rods, crank
Hughes hyd. roller (360, stock bore, Magnum motor)
214/218 degrees dur. @ .050", 114-degree lobe separation...
.525" lift with 1.6 (stock ratio) Crane roller rockers
300# (open) springs; thick-wall (Hughes) pushrods
Hughes recommendations on the springs and pushrods.
750 Holley blow-thru by THE CARB SHOP in Ontario, CA
Chinese "air gap" style intake; TTI headers
8.75" Suregrip; 489 case with crush sleeve eliminator; 4.11:1
"Built" 904 with a stock ("high-stall") OEM converter; 2,500 rpm stall before the blower; dunno now... brakes won't hold it... LOL!
Stock, composition head gasket; true 9:1 compression.... 185-195 pounds of compression
Vortech V-1, S-trim blower; 50,000 rpm impeller speed @ 6,000 crank rpm
Snowperformance Boost Cooler alky injection
MSD Boostmaster ignition retard
Avaion fuel (100+ octane)
Crane Roller 1.6:1 rockers
445 rwhp; 470 torque on a DynoJet dyno. Max HP @ 5400
Backtobasics
Well-Known Member
If MPG is the primary concern:
Keep the existing engine, and upgrade the primary items. You did not list your existing combo, but here is a stab at a recipe:
4 bbl intake (stocker for 30 bucks, to Edelbrock RPM 250 bucks)
600 cfm carb, pick your brand (you could get a used carb off craigslist locally and rebuild for 50 plus 25 rebuild kit, up to 300 for new)
full tune up with good parts, multi spark box (premium wires, cap rotor, 100 bucks, Ignition box 200 bucks)
headers (100 summit)
moderate dual exhaust 2.5 piping (summit 210.00)
ditch the 3.73 gears for something smaller, 2.76 would be pretty good, 2.94 is another option.
Cost outlay:
Cheap (500-600)
New premium (1150 - infinity)
Gears with a NON OD transmission will make the biggest difference. If you want to drive your mopar, and get MPG, you need to make a compromise, and gears will drop the RPM the most.
Keep the existing engine, and upgrade the primary items. You did not list your existing combo, but here is a stab at a recipe:
4 bbl intake (stocker for 30 bucks, to Edelbrock RPM 250 bucks)
600 cfm carb, pick your brand (you could get a used carb off craigslist locally and rebuild for 50 plus 25 rebuild kit, up to 300 for new)
full tune up with good parts, multi spark box (premium wires, cap rotor, 100 bucks, Ignition box 200 bucks)
headers (100 summit)
moderate dual exhaust 2.5 piping (summit 210.00)
ditch the 3.73 gears for something smaller, 2.76 would be pretty good, 2.94 is another option.
Cost outlay:
Cheap (500-600)
New premium (1150 - infinity)
Gears with a NON OD transmission will make the biggest difference. If you want to drive your mopar, and get MPG, you need to make a compromise, and gears will drop the RPM the most.
Backtobasics
Well-Known Member
I personally like the Magnum swap, but the cost is such that I don't think you can do it for your 1 k budget, even using the cheapest parts.
If this route is for you, I suggest finding a donor vehicle. I have seen complete vans with 318 and the OD transmission for under a grand locally. The computer, wiring, trans, etc can be used, but the fulel system might sneak up on you.
A pump with proper pre and post filters can get expensive. Add lines into the mix and the price goes up.
With that being said, my 1997 Ram 1/2 ton with 5.2 moves pretty well for me. The truck weighs 4950 so the same engine would definately move a 3000-3500 pound A body with ease. In the long run, the cam can be changed, Mopar makes an M1 intake that works with all the Fuel injection, and Professional Producsts crosswind manifold fits the magnum heads. As I understand it Enginequest has a really nice set of magnum replacement heads that flow awesome. As budget allows it would be pretty easy to raise the RPM ceiling.
If this route is for you, I suggest finding a donor vehicle. I have seen complete vans with 318 and the OD transmission for under a grand locally. The computer, wiring, trans, etc can be used, but the fulel system might sneak up on you.
A pump with proper pre and post filters can get expensive. Add lines into the mix and the price goes up.
With that being said, my 1997 Ram 1/2 ton with 5.2 moves pretty well for me. The truck weighs 4950 so the same engine would definately move a 3000-3500 pound A body with ease. In the long run, the cam can be changed, Mopar makes an M1 intake that works with all the Fuel injection, and Professional Producsts crosswind manifold fits the magnum heads. As I understand it Enginequest has a really nice set of magnum replacement heads that flow awesome. As budget allows it would be pretty easy to raise the RPM ceiling.
JoeDust451
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Thats part of the problem Sin, the cam definitly doesn't help mileage, if fact, it'll "kill" it, carb isn't helping either, headers will help, but you still have a 318, it sounds to me you want more power, the easiest solution is cubes, you have a rebuilt 727, so keep that, the 7.1/4 rear, thats a negative, so theres a rearend change in the mix, Take the money you have (if you really want to go faster), find a good running 360 magnum, don't spend more then 500.00, then go 'carb'd", start collecting the necessary parts, while your at it, look for an 8.3/4, not an A body, there exspensive, find a B body, all you'll need to do is move the spring purches in, you already have headers & a good trans, you can use the holley 650 on the magnum, if you find a later model magnum like a 2000, your good on the flexplate, it'll have the weights, so no B&M unit is needed, all you really need are these parts.
Crosswind manifold. (189.00 to your door from KMJ performance)
360 center sump oil pan (65.00 on e-bay)
Cam extention for a mech. pump (26.00 from hughes)
Magnum timing change gasket set.
LA oil pan gasket set
Wisco or Procomp "ready to run" diszzy (65.00)
Not sure if the magnum heads will bolt up to your headers, i'm running the RHSs, so they fit, i don't see why they wouldn't though.
Looking forward to talking with you tonight.
Sinister....i hope by now you have got this swap complete.
Dont let the old tech guys scare you. This swap is cheap, and easy...aside from the body specific morsels.
EFI....F*ck a carb. EFI is the ONLY way to go. It will do anything a carb will do...but better. The fuel is at the back of the valve, no wonky uneven wet flow manifolds.
Is the stock beer barrel intake poo? possibly...but it works wel enough. There are alternative intakes, but im heavy so they arent options for me.
If you want MEGASQUIRT in the future {as i do} i would drop the stock motor/ecu in. Its super easy to wire it up, there are only a few specifics you need to know.
96-00 Flexplate WITH BALANCE WEIGHT and tone ring is required for factory efi to work. The 93-95 flex plate does not have the weight on it.
360 LA balance weight is DIFFERENT than the magnum. Dont use a 360 converter unless you knock the weight off it.
"magnum" converters are OD so they wont fit your 727. only choice is to use neutral balance converter, flexplate with 360 MAGNUM weight.
b&m makes the correct flex plate for CARBS but lacks the TONE RING for OEM EFI.
If you use MEGASQUIRT you can use the TBI VR style distributor and no crank signal, or a 36-1 crank trigger wheel. but none of these help get you runnin on stock electronics.
i have all this info on ramcharger central, but i can post it here if cross linking is frowned upon.
So anyways..... If it were me {which it is, as im doing this swap now} I would drop the entire motor in with stock electronics and drive it. the 5.9 magnum is a big step up from a stock 318.
Drive it. Smile. Save your money up....invest in the megasquirt and learn it. By the time its built you will pretty much be an expert on the thing. Then you will be ready to learn the tuning process...which takes time.
I would check the heads for cracks, but understand they have a high probability of cracking...its an IF not WHEN thing. Not ALL 360 magnum heads crack...but more than there fair share will or have.
Use the 93-95 electronics for easiest swapping. OBD1. later model c omputers look for a square wave signal from the central timer. alot more work to make it go vroom.
93-95 Magnum engines take 3 wires to get it to run in any vehicle...or even on your shop floor.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAqBry4n8Ek"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAqBry4n8Ek[/ame]
Dont let the old tech guys scare you. This swap is cheap, and easy...aside from the body specific morsels.
EFI....F*ck a carb. EFI is the ONLY way to go. It will do anything a carb will do...but better. The fuel is at the back of the valve, no wonky uneven wet flow manifolds.
Is the stock beer barrel intake poo? possibly...but it works wel enough. There are alternative intakes, but im heavy so they arent options for me.
If you want MEGASQUIRT in the future {as i do} i would drop the stock motor/ecu in. Its super easy to wire it up, there are only a few specifics you need to know.
96-00 Flexplate WITH BALANCE WEIGHT and tone ring is required for factory efi to work. The 93-95 flex plate does not have the weight on it.
360 LA balance weight is DIFFERENT than the magnum. Dont use a 360 converter unless you knock the weight off it.
"magnum" converters are OD so they wont fit your 727. only choice is to use neutral balance converter, flexplate with 360 MAGNUM weight.
b&m makes the correct flex plate for CARBS but lacks the TONE RING for OEM EFI.
If you use MEGASQUIRT you can use the TBI VR style distributor and no crank signal, or a 36-1 crank trigger wheel. but none of these help get you runnin on stock electronics.
i have all this info on ramcharger central, but i can post it here if cross linking is frowned upon.
So anyways..... If it were me {which it is, as im doing this swap now} I would drop the entire motor in with stock electronics and drive it. the 5.9 magnum is a big step up from a stock 318.
Drive it. Smile. Save your money up....invest in the megasquirt and learn it. By the time its built you will pretty much be an expert on the thing. Then you will be ready to learn the tuning process...which takes time.
I would check the heads for cracks, but understand they have a high probability of cracking...its an IF not WHEN thing. Not ALL 360 magnum heads crack...but more than there fair share will or have.
Use the 93-95 electronics for easiest swapping. OBD1. later model c omputers look for a square wave signal from the central timer. alot more work to make it go vroom.
93-95 Magnum engines take 3 wires to get it to run in any vehicle...or even on your shop floor.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAqBry4n8Ek"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAqBry4n8Ek[/ame]
POS Dakota
Anti-Socialist
Early dodge vans had 727s with the magnum engine so you will need one of those flexplates with the crank sensor holes. They still sell them at dealerships too. I think maybe around 92-94 would be the right years. Something like that.
You can also use any 518 trans with mechanical governor and have a trans as stout as any 727, only with overdrive so you can run a low rear gear and still not get screwed at the pump.
A notch will need to be cut into the bellhousing for the crank sensor to protrude through to pickup the flexplate. not rocket science. Once you see it you'll know exactly what has to be done. Piece of cake.
The magnum block has the LA and Magnum mounts so take your pic.
LA mounts would work a lot better in an older car though. Magnum mounts might move the engine too far forward. there are aftermarket mounts available from a select few.
Rumor has it that the LA mount ears on the mag block might be a little thinner, not sure about that, but it's not a problem.
There are plenty of good magnum cams, and there are intakes available to make awesome power. People don't know what they are talking about. The magnum intakes are dry flow, meaning that no fuel flows in them with the air. So a 2 bbl intake will flow as much and in some cases more than certain intake using a carb. There is also a 4bbl intake for the magnum efi.
Hughes makes an airgap for EFI, there is a victor intake for EFI, and I even have an efi M1 intake for sale with a cam and larger than stock throttle body in the parts section here. I also have PCMs sitting here including a mopar performance PCM and a reflashed one for a bigger cam.
The EFI can be tuned if needed via a reflash of the PCM or even with a superchips tuner. There is a decent assortment of injectors available too for these from ford motorsport for one.
Depending on what car you use, any header with an 02 bung welded in will work for that portion. A 2000 PCM is best since it only used one pre/02 and one post in the DAKOTA. The post can be unplugged without any codes or problems.
The magnum EFI system in capable hands is very good ****.
That's not speculation, it's a fact!!!!
I have a friend posting more than 700hp TO THE WHEELS with it and a paxton. If you want proof I can post it!!!! I have many other friends using them and making very good power with theirs too.
If you have any questions and want answers you can use as opposed to speculation, then ask away, or shoot me a PM.
POS Dakota
Anti-Socialist
The only points I disagree on are that the EFI is the only way to go.
A carb in the right hands can run just as good as EFI and make more peak power in addition to that. I have experience with both, and can cite plenty of examples, even carbs on turbo 318 and 360 setups running 10s in a heavy dakota. The good thing about the EFI is that it requires no adjustment when the engine is within reason.
What I do like about the STOCK efi magnum is the great low end torque. In a dart, many will be inclined to leave it stock and enjoy it as is. it has no problem getting a heavy truck to move. In a dart it will leave rubber down an entire block no problem, and we're not talking a hhuge number here.
OH! and with regards to aftermarket EFI on this motor....look for the early FAST box that merely plugs into the factory harness...
Maybe perhaps on a dyno, or a drag strip carbs can make as much power as EFI.
But carbs cannot be as driveable and powerful as EFI at the same time.
If this was the case, efi would not exist. Also, with a carb you get no dynamic control of spark.
The true benefit to a good EFI system is tuning fuel, spark and monitoring knock all at once. Theres no way to get this type of reliability with a carb and distributor. It just wont happen...unless of course you are running computer controlled spark, but then thats only half the solution now isnt it?
Sure, you might run a 10 or what have you.....but when the terrain gets rough EFI really starts to shine. Carbs wont run inverted, or even heavily inclined. They work off gravity to get fuel into the motor.
If you have a purpose built drag car, and only run at WOT sure a carb might be easier and cheaper with equivalent performance.
But if you run and drive your vehicle in varying conditions with variable fuel quality you will quickly learn to love EFI.
On a note of reliability and performance heres the car we built for our bosses father.
Twin t88's on a rather stock LS-x, mefi4b controller. Two full seasons with no motor failure, cruises and drives part throttle smooth like a Cadillac. Shut down arizona speed and marines dyno at 4k rpm.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvK4ZDcwoFw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvK4ZDcwoFw[/ame]
Twin t88's on a rather stock LS-x, mefi4b controller. Two full seasons with no motor failure, cruises and drives part throttle smooth like a Cadillac. Shut down arizona speed and marines dyno at 4k rpm.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvK4ZDcwoFw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvK4ZDcwoFw[/ame]
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