5.9L....I am at the end of the rope.....

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rtee007

rtee007

Deplorable Texan
Joined
Jun 10, 2014
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Baytown, Texas
.............so to speak.
After all the $ and time I have thrown at the 5.9L Magnum in the Dart it refuses to get well.
I finally got all the parts installed (new H/S 1.7 roller rockers/non-adj, Rhodes Super Lube roller lifters, a new RMP Air Gap & all the bells and whistles that go with installing everything....I reused the existing 6.925 pushrods per the advice of several known Mopar engine shops).
This Dart came with an "alleged" Magnum 380HP crate engine installed with about 6K on the clock.

Initial break in of a 30 mile drive at various speeds resulted in nothing of interest although the valve train sounded noisy, but I was told these Rhodes lifters are noisy.

On the following drive of 100 miles. Temp ran too hot (even with new radiator installed 240-250 most of the first 75 miles. The oil pressure (aftermarket analog gauge from a elec over mech sending unit) was good, 50 psi @3000 rpm and 40 @1200rpm. This car has always ran 230 on the aftermarket analog temp gauge.

About 20 miles from home in traffic, the oil pressure dropped to 0, the temp went to 200. At 2500 rpm the oil pressure went up to 18psi and at idle back to 0.
Valve train noisy with low oil pressure.
No change in coolant temp (coolant, radiator, flex fan, t-stat hose all new).

Two days later, started Dart, oil pressure at idle was 50psi.
Allowed it to warm up and then drain oil, replaced oil (20-50W) and filter.
Started Dart. 1200 rpm was about 5 psi. 2500rpm was 25psi.
Input appreciated before I send it to a shop and have to write a check...........I have my suspicions.
engine%20rockers_zpsr6vfx3zf.jpg
 
How are you measuring oil pressure as in mechanical or electrical sending unit?
 
Electrical, it is a small can, screwed into the rear of the block near the distributor. Wired to aftermarket dash gauge.
 
If the temps have always been this hot, then I would suspect the temp gauge/sensor. With the oil pressure AND the temp gauge dropping all of a sudden on the drive home, know I would suspect both. Are in a set?

Time to borrow an infrared temp gun and check the temp and oil pressure with other gauges and measuring devices before pulling the engine. Could be other things, but I would sort that out first so I knew I had good data.

Why 20W50? Seems excessively heavy.
 
YOU MUST check both temp AND pressure with 'real' gauges. "Rig" a mechanical oil gauge even if you simply screw it in "under the hood." Figure a way to check temperature. Many ways to do so. One is to simply tape a thermometer such as a low range HVAC one, onto the bottom of the top rad hose and wrap some cloth and tape around to insulate.

Borrow or beg an infra red, but make sure it itself is accurate.

HOW TO CHECK a thermometer? I'm so glad you asked. It's known as "boiling water." If you live at some high altitude, get on Al Gore's www and look up the correction factor for boiling point vs altitude.

If the installed gauges turn out to be reading incorrectly, don't condemn them immediately. Could be a wiring / voltage / ground loop problem, a bad sender(s) or even incorrect sender. Aftermarket gauges, like all others, MUST have correct senders.
 
I had 5W-30 then 10W-40 in there during the clean up after the leaking intake gasket allowed water into the crankcase. I use the 20W-50 in most of my engines since it gets pretty hot here in TX in the summer.

I planned on borrowing a temp gun as soon as I locate one at the shop. There was no change in cooling temp after I swapped in the 26" Champion rad.

The gauges were installed in the car when I bought it and I don't have a lot of faith in them. They are a matched set but I don't know the manufacturer, they appear to be new. I will work on testing with new gauges after I check the wiring.
 
I hope its not serious.
If oil pressure goes then so should the motor, pretty shortly afterwards. I think you would know if oil pressure was really gone all together.
I also inherited low buck, no name gauges I my car. Both read incorrectly compared to the mechanical Autommeter gauges I then fitted. The temp gauge was way off (too high).
Has to be the first place to start.
 

I added a hemi sized clutch fan to my cooling system with instantly better cooling. Really good insurance.
 
First off, if the lifters got much noisier after the pressure drop, you probably do have a pressure problem. With a gauge that reads low at least you know to shut it down. If it reads ok or high when you have no pressure you will have a big problem. I find that once you over heat some of these temp gauges they don't work worth a damn again. Normal on them could be 240,but at least you have a reference point. Pressurize the system with the engine off and look for leaks. I think those lifters may bleed down a lot at low speed.
 
I'm not completely familiar with Rhoads lifters, but isn't it better to use adjustable rockers? And when this engine went together did you check your preload? I know that sounds like an asinine question, but roller cammed Ford small blocks had a nearly carbon copy rocker arrangement, and pushrod length is still important...too much preload and you can wear out the lifters prematurely, not enough and you get noise and potentially lessened cam timing.

Also, are they the super lube originals or super lube V-max?? If they're V-max, the tech page even states they must be used with adjustable valvetrain
 
I'm beginning to think with the temp problems you mentioned, you have more than one issue right now and the valvetrain may only be exacerbating it.

I just noticed, you have no fan shroud in that picture...was it just not installed at the time or do you run it that way? No shroud in Texas heat--especially near the coast--just ain't real bright...I know...I grew up in Temple and visited my Dad in New Caney growing up. Even with an AL rad, no fan shroud won't allow proper airflow.
 
OK thanks for all of your input. I am going to examine the accuracy of the gauges first and then move to other areas.

Super Lube Rhodes lifters are installed. And they are the ones to use with a non adjustable valve train. I inquired to several knowledgeable sources and all agree the 6.925 push rods would be fine with the crate engine camshaft. If they are wrong, well I will find out when I tear it apart and learn to never take advice from people who sell and install these products in Mopar engines. Live and learn was the old saying wasn't it?

The coolant system shown no leaks anywhere, internal or external.

The oil system has no external leaks.

Correct I have no shroud, I have the parts to install a twin elec fan system, that will go on engine when the oiling problem is diagnosed. The car has never boiled over or even remotely acted like it was getting hot. The temp seemed to be pretty consistent on the gauge a 230, day or night, idle or balls to the wall. Only after the recent changes and test drive did it soar to 250 and then level off at 210ish. While I am in there I will also make sure now wires have been pinched or such during recent modifications. After all, I am just a layman at this.

Thanks very much and if anyone has anything else, please jot it down here. I hope to get out there in the garage next week chase some wires, shoot cooling system with a heat gun and then screw in a good gauge directly to the sending unit hole. And see what gives.
 
Are the lifters oil through and do you have hollow push rods? I though Magnum engines needed that?

I've never heard of a lifter that cared if the rocker had adjustment or not. Since you have non adjustable rockers you need to verify the push rod length. A milled block and or/ heads, head gasket thickness, longer/shorter valves, shorter/longer lifters, variations in cam grinding (even if the cams are the same), aftermarket rockers (yes, if you compared all the makes of the same ratio, they can vary is pivot, cup and roller location from one make to the other) and the geometry they create will dictate the length of the push rods.
 
The push rods are the standard stock B&B oil through 6.925 in the Magnum crate 380HP engine as this is. I asked several reputable engine builders if these stock oil through B&B push rods would work and the answer was yes.
Oil through lifters? I have no idea. They are Rhodes Super Lube hyd rollers

dano said:
Are the lifters oil through and do you have hollow push rods? I though Magnum engines needed that?

I've never heard of a lifter that cared if the rocker had adjustment or not. Since you have non adjustable rockers you need to verify the push rod length. A milled block and or/ heads, head gasket thickness, longer/shorter valves, shorter/longer lifters, variations in cam grinding (even if the cams are the same), aftermarket rockers (yes, if you compared all the makes of the same ratio, they can vary is pivot, cup and roller location from one make to the other) and the geometry they create will dictate the length of the push rods.
Click to expand...
 
I don't think you actually answered my question; super lube is only an option on two different kinds of lifters...see for yourself...different kinds...

http://www.summitracing.com/search/...ageSize=50&SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Ascending

When you say you asked people to find out which ones were which, that's not qualifying that answer...

Now, if you say you're sure they're the ones compatible with non-adjustable rockers, that still doesn't erase your responsibility to pay due diligence and ensure the proper amount of preload is maintained, correct parts used, correct install made, and perform some type of functional check to ensure everything (like proper oiling) is operating as advertised.

Next, simply dropping in "typical" length pushrods isn't always ideal. Use the search function and read on here...there are literally scores of threads about proper preload adjustment--to include Magnum type engines with non-adjustable rockers. It is possible that you have and engine with stacked tolerances enough to make typical length pushrods not allow proper preload.

Furthermore, if you have the capability and parts to fix a problem, for example like running hot, why are you not fixing it or at least installing the parts that should? 230* isn't exactly overheating, but it damn sure isn't optimal and it can definitely cause other issues, like oil breakdown. Maybe your engine runs fine like that, but it does bear some scrutiny to check for things like a stuck t-stat or collapsing lower radiator hose, either of which is a pretty easy diagnosis.

Everyone on here is happy to help you in most instances...even the most stubborn people like me receive assistance, but you still have to think out some things on your own--layman or not.

BLUF: Check that your rockers are receiving oil, if you can't validate this then ensure your pushrods are hollow and that your lifters are equipped with the oiling hole. If all that's correct, check your preload. It needs to be set in accordance with the instructions provided with the Rhoads lifters.
 
The red arrow is for the super lube groove...that's all the super lube option does is put a groove in the lifter to allow oil drainback to the cam lobe...and that's a picture of a flat tappet lifter--probably for a chevy, because they're common as belly buttons--not for your Magnum

rtee007 said:
Yes. There is hole in the plunger according to this link.
Did I see a hole? No I cant say I did.
That red arrow is Hughes, not mine.

http://www.hughesengines.com/Tools/Popups/fullImage.php?file=/HPCDataDir/Images/RHD2018L.jpg&title=RHD%202018L
Click to expand...
 
...and I agree with dano...he already quantified the statement about using proper length pushrods due to variables within the engine--also known as stacked tolerances. He keyed in on the aftermarket rockers, and I'll second that. When you install aftermarket rockers on any engine and especially magnums due to their lack of adjustability, you really need to verify the pushrod length because they may not be spot on perfect to replicate proper preload.
 
txstang84 said:
...and i agree with dano...he already quantified the statement about using proper length pushrods due to variables within the engine--also known as stacked tolerances. He keyed in on the aftermarket rockers, and i'll second that. When you install aftermarket rockers on any engine and especially magnums due to their lack of adjustability, you really need to verify the pushrod length because they may not be spot on perfect to replicate proper preload.
Click to expand...
+1`
 
TX Stang is dead on, all three counts. Valve train, can become an sticky situation without research ahead of time.
My ideas:
1 get a fan shroud,on the fan /Get some cooling fans.
2 Get an adjustable pushrod, search for .030"-.060" lifter preload at the pushrod end of the rocker. ( dial indicator, on the pushrod end of the rocker arm.)
3 Take your time,make sure everything clears. This isn't "stock" assembly, this is taking non matched parts,from several different manufacture companies. " Bolt on" is a relative term here, it all needs to be matched up correctly.
 
txstang84 said:
The red arrow is for the super lube groove...that's all the super lube option does is put a groove in the lifter to allow oil drainback to the cam lobe...and that's a picture of a flat tappet lifter--probably for a chevy, because they're common as belly buttons--not for your Magnum
Click to expand...

RHD 1068L is the part I ordered and the pic came from the vendor page I bought them from, Hughes Engines (which drop shipped from Rhoads directly). I know many vendors use stock pictures to advertise parts.
 
txstang84 said:
...and I agree with dano...he already quantified the statement about using proper length pushrods due to variables within the engine--also known as stacked tolerances. He keyed in on the aftermarket rockers, and I'll second that. When you install aftermarket rockers on any engine and especially magnums due to their lack of adjustability, you really need to verify the pushrod length because they may not be spot on perfect to replicate proper preload.
Click to expand...

Well if that is the case, I would guess at least the new lifters and rockers are toast. Maybe more. Thanks.
 
Abodybomber said:
TX Stang is dead on, all three counts. Valve train, can become an sticky situation without research ahead of time.
My ideas:
1 get a fan shroud,on the fan /Get some cooling fans.
2 Get an adjustable pushrod, search for .030"-.060" lifter preload at the pushrod end of the rocker. ( dial indicator, on the pushrod end of the rocker arm.)
3 Take your time,make sure everything clears. This isn't "stock" assembly, this is taking non matched parts,from several different manufacture companies. " Bolt on" is a relative term here, it all needs to be matched up correctly.
Click to expand...

1.Well as I said in the previous post, I have all the stuff to install a dual fan set up. But until I figure out this oiling issue it will have to wait.
2. Yeah that is a given now, after I have probably ruined at least the rockers and lifters already, maybe even more.
3.Believe me, I didn't toss this together in an afternoon. I asked a lot of people (including this list) and applied what I was told. Well, application isn't working so I will try again.

I do appreciate all of your thoughts on this matter. Tough when I have nobody closer than an internet forum to ask questions of. Thanks again.
 
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