'64 dart amp gage

[barbee6043]

i'm sure the M.A.D. conversion is my next step, but here is what I find. good battery fully charged, I have done this with 2 good used alt. one single field, the other square back 2 field alt. ( with second field connection grounded).... after the engine is warmed and battery settled. the v, will read basically about 12.1- 12.2 at alt. and batt. at idle, and reved up about 12.6 at both alt. and battery. the VR shows about 1 v. drop from what I read at batt and alt, losing current inside dash I guess? when cold the idle v is 13 and drops as it warms.

NOW, at idle , inside , the old amp gage shows right in middle between C and D, but when reved it clearly shows discharge. the car idled maybe 20 minutes but the battery never showed any sign of running down, when I pout the charger on it.

car is not yet insured but I did drive it down our back roads 2-3 mi. ran good, no problems surfaced, but since no insurance I did not want to drive further.

this 64 dart has the stud connection at the bulkhead instead of the common wires into the plug deal. I have been told those pose fewer chance of problems, but no doubt the MAD change would be wise. question is, why does the amp gage show this discharge?????? bad gauge or connections.

 

[67Dart273]

i'm sure the M.A.D. conversion is my next step,

Before you do that, check if your car is one of the years that has the BIG terminals for the ammeter pass through. I can never remember..............

Below is the engine bay connector for a '65 (I don't have a 64 manual) See the two big center terminals? You have those?

 

[67Dart273]

v, will read basically about 12.1- 12.2 at alt. and batt. at idle, and reved up about 12.6 at both alt. and battery. the VR shows about 1 v. drop from what I read at batt and alt, losing current inside dash I guess? when cold the idle v is 13 and drops as it warms.

NOW, at idle , inside , the old amp gage shows right in middle between C and D, but when reved it clearly shows discharge. the car idled maybe 20 minutes but the battery never showed any sign of running down,

First determine if the CIRCUIT PATH from the alternator to the battery has a problem

First, check that the belt is tight!!!!

Next, run the engine at fast idle. With all accessories off, measure voltage at battery terminals and then at the alternator output stud. If the output stud is "way high" say 16V or higher, then you have a problem in that charge path to the battery.

If the alternator stud is fairly low, below 13.5, "it is not charging"

If this last is the case, determine if either alternator works.

With your field jumper to ground, and the engine off, run a jumper from the insulated field connection direct to battery. The starter relay stud is a good place. When you hook this up in subdued light, you should be able to detect a small spark.

Run the engine and watch the ammeter. The ammeter should come up into "charge" higher as you bring up RPM. If not, with engine running, and with the field jumpered to battery, AGAIN compare battery voltage to alternator stud voltage at "fast idle". If the alternator stud is low, down around 13 or less, the alternator is not charging.

If the above test DOES show a charge, now check the field wiring for the regulator. Hook everything up "normal," and then disconnect the VR wires. Jumper them together. Repeat your test as above, IE run engine look at ammeter. If you show a good charge......replace the VR

Make SURE the VR is grounded.

 

[barbee6043]

Before you do that, check if your car is one of the years that has the BIG terminals for the ammeter pass through. I can never remember..............

Below is the engine bay connector for a '65 (I don't have a 64 manual) See the two big center terminals? You have those?

View attachment 1714951202

YES, the 63 dart is like the 65. I actually have a 63, 64, 65 darts. funny how the 64 firewall is the later type where the black and red hot wires go in to the plug that plugs into the firewall. weird!

 

[barbee6043]

First determine if the CIRCUIT PATH from the alternator to the battery has a problem

First, check that the belt is tight!!!!

Next, run the engine at fast idle. With all accessories off, measure voltage at battery terminals and then at the alternator output stud. If the output stud is "way high" say 16V or higher, then you have a problem in that charge path to the battery.

If the alternator stud is fairly low, below 13.5, "it is not charging"

If this last is the case, determine if either alternator works.

With your field jumper to ground, and the engine off, run a jumper from the insulated field connection direct to battery. The starter relay stud is a good place. When you hook this up in subdued light, you should be able to detect a small spark.

Run the engine and watch the ammeter. The ammeter should come up into "charge" higher as you bring up RPM. If not, with engine running, and with the field jumpered to battery, AGAIN compare battery voltage to alternator stud voltage at "fast idle". If the alternator stud is low, down around 13 or less, the alternator is not charging.

If the above test DOES show a charge, now check the field wiring for the regulator. Hook everything up "normal," and then disconnect the VR wires. Jumper them together. Repeat your test as above, IE run engine look at ammeter. If you show a good charge......replace the VR

Make SURE the VR is grounded.

YES spark at alt.

jumpered the VR wires, re checked VR ground, I get 14.7 at batt and 15.7 at alt. I did re do the connector at field sire also , . the VR is the old style mech. typem NEW, but we know how that is!! ..

another question: IF I go with oem electronic ist. up, and use the secod field wire on this ( or new aq. back alt), I will go to the newer style VR, where do I run the second field wire????? OR can I use the old style VR with the electronic setup?????
thanks for the info.

 

[67Dart273]

You an use the new style VR but you MUST use an isolated field alternator. The second field terminal goes to switched "ignition run" in other words the same place as the VR IGN terminal.

 

[Darthomas]

Agree with all above.
VR should be aiming for 13.8 at battery-and sensing voltage with engine running and no loads turned on.
Now I have a right side turn signal issue to look at, dammit.

 

[barbee6043]

going back to what 67dart273 said about the VR, I took the wires lose from it, jumpered them together. reving the engine the amp gauge shows big time discharge, but when I put the meter on the alt and batt it read 15.7 and 14.7 respectively. I will take one of the alt to town tomorrow and see if anyone at O Reillys can test a single field alt.
I meant to say this car is a 63!

 

[67Dart273]

Just test it on your car

Make up a temporary jumper of no 10 OR BIGGER wire, or use several no 14's or 2 or three no 12 in parallel.

Jumper this with "good" connections direct from the alternator stud to the battery

Get a KNOWN GOOD jumper and hook your field wire to the battery

READ the shop manual and PERFORM the field amp draw test. This does a couple of things...........shows if the field draw is within limits, IE too much means a partially shorted field, and too little means bad brushes, etc

Then jumper the field to the battery and re-run the charging test. Is the battery down/ dead? Probably. It might be "sucking" all the current it can. If you have a charger, put it on the battery overnight.

With the engine started, and the jumpers above, and with the battery "back up" bringing up engine should allow you to bring battery voltage WELL above 15. I would not go above 16. Watch your meter.

If not, re--measure the alternator stud. More than about a volt difference between the alternator stud and the battery means high resistance in that current path. This could be, example, right at the alternator or your bulkhead connections. THIS DROP will depend on how hard the alternator is charging, that is, with a dead battery and / or the heater and lights on, this drop (voltage difference) will be MORE, as there is MORE current going through that path

 

[67Dart273]

The way I see it for now:

Seems like the alternator is trying to "put out"

But maybe not enough OR the battery is just way down.

Is there any chance you have REVERSED the ammeter leads? To find out, shut everything OFF make certain the ammeter is centered, and turn on the headlights. Should move to the left, discharge.

If this happens, the alternator may be toast.

 

[Darthomas]

Could be shorted rectifier, doesn't happen often, but does sometimes.
How far does the meter go into D with ignition turned on and motor not running, let's say, compared to headlights on with ignition off?

Had to resolder on the button for the rear right turn signal lamp socket, musta taken 20 minutes! Darn these 50 year old cars anyway and repairs that cost nothing but a little TLC.

 

[Darthomas]

Wow. Reversed leads at ammeter would be true confusion.
Auto parts stores used to have ammeters for service.
Two slots, two scales, one big slot for big wires, calibrated to read cranking amps, one small slot for alt current, calibrated to read charging current. I wonder if these are still available?

 

[barbee6043]

going back to what 67dart273 said about the VR, I took the wires lose from it, jumpered them together. reving the engine the amp gauge shows big time discharge, but when I put the meter on the alt and batt it read 15.7 and 14.7 respectively. I will take one of the alt to town tomorrow and see if anyone at O Reillys can test a single field alt.
I meant to say this car is a 63![/QUOTE

like said, I jumpered the VR wires together, and get 14.7 and 15.7 at the alt and batt espectively, but looking at amp gauge it shows discharge as I reve it. why??????????

as usual, I hauled this car home as a roller. I have never been into instrument cluster yet. out of time this am, but I will try to check some more things out this afternoon.