70 condensor question
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Oklacarcollecto
Life is an experiment
Do you have integral AC or hang-on AC?
It's a factory ac car but nothing but the evaporator core and compressor (which is a sealed factory reman) is there so I'm trying to find all the parts to get it back to factory type or something close to that.I'm not really interested in the after markrt kit since I have a few of the parts.
Oklacarcollecto
Life is an experiment
If you have factory installed AC then here is one for you for $35.00
ABC Auto Salvage Inc. Biloxi Ms. 228-392-2288 / 800-207-3750
The hang on I mentioned is also Chrysler but it was installed by the dealer.
Thanks that helps ALOT.I think the 72 satellite I use to have ha dthe hang on type come to think of it the controls was on the vent unit.
The only book I have on the shelf covers 1971 & up.
The 1971 & '72 show the same condensor - '73 & up a different part.
depending on what you plan to do, you can either upgrade the condensor to a parallel flow type for 134a operation - or replace it with a tube & fin type for R12 refrigerant.
Either way, the place to go for info & parts is Arizona Moble Air. They are a multi generation company, and have a lot of knowledge when it comes to the old stuff.
1-602-233-0090 A guy named Tim owns the place, and he usually very helpful on the phone.
With a million + part numbers, his web site is always behind. If you don't find what you want on it, CALL them.
Arizona Mobile Air
B.
The 1971 & '72 show the same condensor - '73 & up a different part.
depending on what you plan to do, you can either upgrade the condensor to a parallel flow type for 134a operation - or replace it with a tube & fin type for R12 refrigerant.
Either way, the place to go for info & parts is Arizona Moble Air. They are a multi generation company, and have a lot of knowledge when it comes to the old stuff.
1-602-233-0090 A guy named Tim owns the place, and he usually very helpful on the phone.
With a million + part numbers, his web site is always behind. If you don't find what you want on it, CALL them.
Arizona Mobile Air
B.
Oklacarcollecto
Life is an experiment
If that one doesn't work out PM me and I will find you another one.
I know that the 72 and older is for the 22" radiator and the 73 and up is for the ??26"??.
I would like to go 134a so the stock condensors aren't as good for 134a?
The stock Tube & Fin type condensors in any vehicle have a poor track record when converted to 134a. High head pressures & poor performance.
If you are willing to make a change to a newer style condensor, you can have great performance. Newer cars have good A/C with smaller compressors. If you keep the RV2 you can have better cooling than it had when new.
The condensor from a 2006 CTS-V is the right size. It is 22 inches across the core, about 16.5 high, and has great mounting tabs. The dryer is part of the condensor, so that will clean up the plumbing & engine bay. The dryer element is replaceable.
Hope this helps.
B.
If you are willing to make a change to a newer style condensor, you can have great performance. Newer cars have good A/C with smaller compressors. If you keep the RV2 you can have better cooling than it had when new.
The condensor from a 2006 CTS-V is the right size. It is 22 inches across the core, about 16.5 high, and has great mounting tabs. The dryer is part of the condensor, so that will clean up the plumbing & engine bay. The dryer element is replaceable.
Hope this helps.
B.
Oklacarcollecto
Life is an experiment
I want my car as an original so I am going to stay with R12. They say the V2 compressor like you have won't hold up to the R134A either. Plenty of R12 floats around on eBay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/R12-FREON-C...Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2a14f04448
http://www.ebay.com/itm/R-12-FREON-...Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item1c1ffb62a8
http://www.ebay.com/itm/R-12-Refrig...Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item27bf5ab7a1
i had to Google "CTS-V" to find out what the heck that is ( Cadillac ).
Thats for the tip
The 73 condenser is a 1 year only deal. The reciever/dryer attaches to the upper passenger side of the condenser.
If your RV2 was rebuilt within the last 12 years, it should be fine on 134a.
There are four things that caused issues with the RV2 & 134a refrigerant:
Seal & oil compatibility.
Early seals were not compatible with 134a, and shaft seal leaks were common. All of the seals, O rings & hoses should be upgraded to the newer material when converting to 134a. New seals are still compatible with R12 if you decide to go that way.
Oils used for 134a are not compatible with the original mineral based oil in the system Many retrofits failed because the old oil was not removed. Starting with a clean system, and using Ester oil will leave you with a system that can handle either R12 or 134a. If you use PAG oil, you will have a 134a only system. If you choose PAG, make sure it is DEC PAG from a fresh sealed container. PAG can absorb water from the air if left open.
Dryer / dessicant compatibility.
R12 systems had a dessicant that was not compatible with 134a, and it was common for the beads to swell & break the bag they were in. Then the abrasive dessicant went through the system, clogging passages & killing compressors.
Currently all dryers are loaded with a dessicant that is compatible with both R12 & 134a. Any dryer made in the last 10 years should be fine, if it is unused & tightly sealed. An NOS dryer that has been laying on a shelf with open ports for a couple of years is junk.
The EPR valve.
Many Rv2 compressors have an Evaporator Pressure Regulator or EPR in the inlet of the compressor. This valve does the same job the POA valve does in a GM system. It controls the evaporator pressure by throttling the compressor suction. The constant evaporator pressure prevents freezing or icing up, while maintaining maximum cooling capacity when you need it.
EPR valves are adjustable, and need a different setting for 134a. It is not difficult, but is all too often overlooked. Some techs threw them away when converting, and the system really does not perform well when you do that. Not all models had an EPR either - check your FSM to be sure.
High head pressures.
134a conversions are plagued with high pressures. This adds to the load on the compressor, and shortens it's life. There are several causes. Poor condensor performance is usually at the top of the list. design / airflow / condition all play a part. A 40 year old tube & fin in good shape with the OEM shroud in place & a properly operating fan assembly will do great with R12 - and is 15% undersized for 134a. So the pressures go up. cooling suffers.
A worn out fan clutch can be the end of a compressor. The first excuse I hear is "it does not overheat". The engine may not, especially with a good radiator. But the high side pressure may go from 250 psi to 325 psi under the same conditions. The compressor works itself to death, and everything is running hotter as well.
Upgrading the condensor has benefits even with R12. More cooling (obviously). Lower head pressures, which extend compressor life. Less horsepower used - taking 100 psi off of the high side means less torque to drive the pump. Unless it is a 100 point car, upgrade the condensor. Things really have improved in the condensor world.
If you decide to stay with R12, there is plenty of it available. All you need to do is take a simple, open-book test online. Costs about 15 bucks, and you get your 609 certification. Then you can buy all the R12 you want, over the counter like the big boys do. No need for rusty cans from e-bay or "mystery gas" at the swap meet.
Finally, let's talk about junkyard parts for a minute.
Any A/C system is a close tolerance, high pressure gas system. It recirculates a few ounces of oil, with no filter. You never do routine oil changes. You only get one chance to put it together right.
If it is necessary to use a junkyard part, try to remember that statement above. The inside of any A/C part must be completely clean. The remains of a blown up compressor or failed dessicant bag may be hiding anywhere in any used part. Some parts like mufflers (the "cans" in rubber lines) are next to impossible to flush completely clean. Any time you flush with a solvent, you need to make sure you get 100% of the solvent out of the parts as well. remaining solvent is a killer of new compressors.
You would not re-use an engine or trans oil cooler after an engine or transmission failure without cleaning it would you? Or hook it back up with a quart of paint thinner still in it? Don't do that to your A/C system either.
B.
There are four things that caused issues with the RV2 & 134a refrigerant:
Seal & oil compatibility.
Early seals were not compatible with 134a, and shaft seal leaks were common. All of the seals, O rings & hoses should be upgraded to the newer material when converting to 134a. New seals are still compatible with R12 if you decide to go that way.
Oils used for 134a are not compatible with the original mineral based oil in the system Many retrofits failed because the old oil was not removed. Starting with a clean system, and using Ester oil will leave you with a system that can handle either R12 or 134a. If you use PAG oil, you will have a 134a only system. If you choose PAG, make sure it is DEC PAG from a fresh sealed container. PAG can absorb water from the air if left open.
Dryer / dessicant compatibility.
R12 systems had a dessicant that was not compatible with 134a, and it was common for the beads to swell & break the bag they were in. Then the abrasive dessicant went through the system, clogging passages & killing compressors.
Currently all dryers are loaded with a dessicant that is compatible with both R12 & 134a. Any dryer made in the last 10 years should be fine, if it is unused & tightly sealed. An NOS dryer that has been laying on a shelf with open ports for a couple of years is junk.
The EPR valve.
Many Rv2 compressors have an Evaporator Pressure Regulator or EPR in the inlet of the compressor. This valve does the same job the POA valve does in a GM system. It controls the evaporator pressure by throttling the compressor suction. The constant evaporator pressure prevents freezing or icing up, while maintaining maximum cooling capacity when you need it.
EPR valves are adjustable, and need a different setting for 134a. It is not difficult, but is all too often overlooked. Some techs threw them away when converting, and the system really does not perform well when you do that. Not all models had an EPR either - check your FSM to be sure.
High head pressures.
134a conversions are plagued with high pressures. This adds to the load on the compressor, and shortens it's life. There are several causes. Poor condensor performance is usually at the top of the list. design / airflow / condition all play a part. A 40 year old tube & fin in good shape with the OEM shroud in place & a properly operating fan assembly will do great with R12 - and is 15% undersized for 134a. So the pressures go up. cooling suffers.
A worn out fan clutch can be the end of a compressor. The first excuse I hear is "it does not overheat". The engine may not, especially with a good radiator. But the high side pressure may go from 250 psi to 325 psi under the same conditions. The compressor works itself to death, and everything is running hotter as well.
Upgrading the condensor has benefits even with R12. More cooling (obviously). Lower head pressures, which extend compressor life. Less horsepower used - taking 100 psi off of the high side means less torque to drive the pump. Unless it is a 100 point car, upgrade the condensor. Things really have improved in the condensor world.
If you decide to stay with R12, there is plenty of it available. All you need to do is take a simple, open-book test online. Costs about 15 bucks, and you get your 609 certification. Then you can buy all the R12 you want, over the counter like the big boys do. No need for rusty cans from e-bay or "mystery gas" at the swap meet.
Finally, let's talk about junkyard parts for a minute.
Any A/C system is a close tolerance, high pressure gas system. It recirculates a few ounces of oil, with no filter. You never do routine oil changes. You only get one chance to put it together right.
If it is necessary to use a junkyard part, try to remember that statement above. The inside of any A/C part must be completely clean. The remains of a blown up compressor or failed dessicant bag may be hiding anywhere in any used part. Some parts like mufflers (the "cans" in rubber lines) are next to impossible to flush completely clean. Any time you flush with a solvent, you need to make sure you get 100% of the solvent out of the parts as well. remaining solvent is a killer of new compressors.
You would not re-use an engine or trans oil cooler after an engine or transmission failure without cleaning it would you? Or hook it back up with a quart of paint thinner still in it? Don't do that to your A/C system either.
B.
I would rather stay as stock as possible and I have a couple of the key parts.It's a factory air car so I'm trying to stay with that.I didn't know the r12 was so available.
my compressor was remanufactured for four seasons with a stick tag with punch out holes from 01-05 but no holes are punched.So this was reman'd with in 10 years ago so it should be ok for 134a right?It still has the seal plates on it.
Yes, that compressor should be compatible with 134a.
The phase out for new production was 1993. By 2000, the newest R12 car was 7 years old. Manufacturers changed over quickly, and by 2001 there was very little R12 parts inventory in the regular parts stream.
Your evaporator is just fine with either refrigerant. 134a is capable of removing a little more heat with the same mass flow as R12 - it is actually slightly more effective. But that means you have more heat to get rid of in the condensor...
B.
The phase out for new production was 1993. By 2000, the newest R12 car was 7 years old. Manufacturers changed over quickly, and by 2001 there was very little R12 parts inventory in the regular parts stream.
Your evaporator is just fine with either refrigerant. 134a is capable of removing a little more heat with the same mass flow as R12 - it is actually slightly more effective. But that means you have more heat to get rid of in the condensor...
B.
Thanks bohica2xo,thats alot of good info now I have to decide which way I want to go.What do you advise,I have the compressor and evap core but thats it.I still want a fairly stock look.Two options best and cheapest with adaquate parts.
I am not a mopar expert, but it all depends on what parts you have, and how "stock" you want it to look.
Mopar kept the TXV under the hood for a long time. I can't say for sure on your car, but it probably had a TXV near the firewall, and a special tube on the suction line with a sheath for the sensing bulb to slide in to. It may have had a connection for an equalizing line from the TXV as well - I simply can't recall.
The TXV was fed with a hard line that ran down the top of the passenger side inner fender, to the receiver / dryer mounted near the radiator support.
The discharge line from the compressor was rubber, and went to the top of the condensor. The line from the bottom of the condensor went to the inlet on the receiver / dryer.
The suction line from the compressor was rubber. It made a big loop over the passenger side back to the metal pipe from the evaporator with the connection(s) for the TXV sensing.
If all you have are the two fittings at the firewall where the evaporator connects & the OEM compressor & mounts - you have parts to scrounge or make:
The long high side hard line. Original parts are always rusty - on the outside. If they are rusty on the inside, they need to be duplicated.
The suction side pipe with all of the details. If this is missing, you will need to locate one.
The TXV is still available - the AMA site shows them under the "Duster" heading. Same story for the condensor & receiver dryer.
New hoses can be made by AMA or any local hose shop.
The long metal hardline can be replaced with a hose, but it will not "look stock"
It all comes down to what you want to do with the car. If it is a show car, and you want the OEM look - find the parts & go R12.
If it is a driver with aftermarket parts all over the place, and you want great A/C - go with the stock parts at the firewall, and the CTS-V condensor. Two custom hoses and you have A/C - and can run a134.
B.
Mopar kept the TXV under the hood for a long time. I can't say for sure on your car, but it probably had a TXV near the firewall, and a special tube on the suction line with a sheath for the sensing bulb to slide in to. It may have had a connection for an equalizing line from the TXV as well - I simply can't recall.
The TXV was fed with a hard line that ran down the top of the passenger side inner fender, to the receiver / dryer mounted near the radiator support.
The discharge line from the compressor was rubber, and went to the top of the condensor. The line from the bottom of the condensor went to the inlet on the receiver / dryer.
The suction line from the compressor was rubber. It made a big loop over the passenger side back to the metal pipe from the evaporator with the connection(s) for the TXV sensing.
If all you have are the two fittings at the firewall where the evaporator connects & the OEM compressor & mounts - you have parts to scrounge or make:
The long high side hard line. Original parts are always rusty - on the outside. If they are rusty on the inside, they need to be duplicated.
The suction side pipe with all of the details. If this is missing, you will need to locate one.
The TXV is still available - the AMA site shows them under the "Duster" heading. Same story for the condensor & receiver dryer.
New hoses can be made by AMA or any local hose shop.
The long metal hardline can be replaced with a hose, but it will not "look stock"
It all comes down to what you want to do with the car. If it is a show car, and you want the OEM look - find the parts & go R12.
If it is a driver with aftermarket parts all over the place, and you want great A/C - go with the stock parts at the firewall, and the CTS-V condensor. Two custom hoses and you have A/C - and can run a134.
B.
redneckmba
Active Member
I just had my A/C system reworked: Reman compressor, new dryer receiver, new expansion valve. I also had the system converted to R-134a. Your system should not have a suction throttling valve.
It can take $150 to $300 to fill your car with R-12. Plus, these older systems leak more and may need work more. Costs can add up for replacing R-12.
I am using the original condenser in my '74 Valiant and I have had good luck. Interior cooling performance is adequate for Louisiana. The high side pressure will be higher with the R-134a due to the thermodynamics. But with adequate air flow past the condenser, the pressure increase should only be 25 to 50 psi. Mine is 250 psig at 88F.
If you do the R-134a conversion, make sure that any gaps that allow air to bypass the condensor are closed. I had to make a couple of baffles to make all the air go through the condenser. Then I went to the heavy duty fan clutch which, for a given air temperature, allows less slippage than the standard units.
It can take $150 to $300 to fill your car with R-12. Plus, these older systems leak more and may need work more. Costs can add up for replacing R-12.
I am using the original condenser in my '74 Valiant and I have had good luck. Interior cooling performance is adequate for Louisiana. The high side pressure will be higher with the R-134a due to the thermodynamics. But with adequate air flow past the condenser, the pressure increase should only be 25 to 50 psi. Mine is 250 psig at 88F.
If you do the R-134a conversion, make sure that any gaps that allow air to bypass the condensor are closed. I had to make a couple of baffles to make all the air go through the condenser. Then I went to the heavy duty fan clutch which, for a given air temperature, allows less slippage than the standard units.
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