A painful day with my 440

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Mopar-Man

Mopar-Man

Big Block Better Burnout
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A good friend who is a professional engine builder stopped by today to check the bearings on my 440 since I already had it on the stand and all painted up nice and pretty. When we unbolted the rod caps I got a nasty surprise. While the bearing SURFACES looked great, the edges were shiny and the backsides of the bearing actually transfered metal to the caps! We had a hard time getting the caps off. Here is the best part: When I bought this engine it came fully documented with receipts for parts and labor which stated: "68 440 six pack crank and rods". Guess what we found? Yup, good ol' LY rods. Man, I hate liars. So the rods are junk. At least they were floated and everything was balanced. We pulled the main caps and the crank and bearings are PERFECT so I don't understand what happened with the rod bearing backs. My friend thinks it was simply over-revved too many times. I shifted it at 6500 so I don't have any ideas.

We then pulled the heads off and got surprise #2. Somehow it got moisture in #8 and ate up the top of the piston (pits) and the cylinder wall. Will be lucky to clean up at .060 over. :spiderma: This sucker is all done.

Next we picked it up and set in the back of his pickup. Gee, that was heavy. Did you notice how the Dodge Ram bed is 4 feet high? I think I will feel that tomorrow. Still had crank, cam, timing set, and balancer.

He has a low deck and we are probably just going to build a 451. I am pricing parts out now. He also has some Stage 6 heads. I just want a mid-10 second time and I would be happy.

Thanks for letting me vent and I hope you all learned from my mistakes.
 
Ouch I feel for you, this is why I buy each and every part to my engines. Again sorry to hear about that.
 
sorry about your luck cuz i cant imagine geeting jammed like that it would push me over the edge and im damn close now take care
 
..Ive contemplated buying a couple short blocks.........but u never know whats inside....that keeps me away....kim...........
 
I have a nice set of six pack rods I'm tryin to move. I got good feedback too.
 
Playing devil's advocate... IIRC some or all of the first sixpacks had LY rods, 440-4bbl cam, and 4bbl pistons becuse the parts were not ready for the '69 models. So they basically stuck the aluminum intake and carbs onto 440Magnum longblocks. That may have been a simple case of ignorance on the part of the previous owner. (might have been on purpose but you never know)
What do the mating surfaces of the main caps look like? Sounds like you have/had detonation issues and you should also see signs of the caps moving on the block's main cap mating surface. It's fairly common.
 
Interestin moper. I never knew that.
 
Mopar-Man said:
A good friend who is a professional engine builder stopped by today to check the bearings on my 440 since I already had it on the stand and all painted up nice and pretty. When we unbolted the rod caps I got a nasty surprise. While the bearing SURFACES looked great, the edges were shiny and the backsides of the bearing actually transfered metal to the caps! We had a hard time getting the caps off. Here is the best part: When I bought this engine it came fully documented with receipts for parts and labor which stated: "68 440 six pack crank and rods". Guess what we found? Yup, good ol' LY rods. Man, I hate liars. So the rods are junk. At least they were floated and everything was balanced. We pulled the main caps and the crank and bearings are PERFECT so I don't understand what happened with the rod bearing backs. My friend thinks it was simply over-revved too many times. I shifted it at 6500 so I don't have any ideas.

We then pulled the heads off and got surprise #2. Somehow it got moisture in #8 and ate up the top of the piston (pits) and the cylinder wall. Will be lucky to clean up at .060 over. :spiderma: This sucker is all done.

Next we picked it up and set in the back of his pickup. Gee, that was heavy. Did you notice how the Dodge Ram bed is 4 feet high? I think I will feel that tomorrow. Still had crank, cam, timing set, and balancer.

He has a low deck and we are probably just going to build a 451. I am pricing parts out now. He also has some Stage 6 heads. I just want a mid-10 second time and I would be happy.

Thanks for letting me vent and I hope you all learned from my mistakes.
Click to expand...

I'm gonna assume this motor was previously run?
And if thats the case..
detonation=piston pits and rod & bolt failure and possible cap walk [shinny spots]
crap rod bolts+high rpms=stretched rod bolts, what brand of rod bolts were used?
Though if you found water/rust in there...it had to be in there a LONG TIME to pit the piston top..that sux
Did you check run out?
I'd find out how far out of round the bores are.
And did you know that six pac rods are garbage?
the 6 puke rod was a boat anchor with extra meat everywhere but where it really counted, I would run a LY rod any day over a sht pack rod.fwiw
The guy lying to you really sux, but you ended up with a better rod, well core rod anyways cause they need to be resized now and check the rod journals for tapper/ovaling or any other abnormalities.

sorry to hear
 
1wild&crazyguy said:
I'm gonna assume this motor was previously run?
And if thats the case..
detonation=piston pits and rod & bolt failure and possible cap walk [shinny spots]
crap rod bolts+high rpms=stretched rod bolts, what brand of rod bolts were used?
Though if you found water/rust in there...it had to be in there a LONG TIME to pit the piston top..that sux
Did you check run out?
I'd find out how far out of round the bores are.
And did you know that six pac rods are garbage?
the 6 puke rod was a boat anchor with extra meat everywhere but where it really counted, I would run a LY rod any day over a sht pack rod.fwiw
The guy lying to you really sux, but you ended up with a better rod, well core rod anyways cause they need to be resized now and check the rod journals for tapper/ovaling or any other abnormalities.

sorry to hear
Click to expand...

That's okay, just a learning experience for me. I'm over it. I think I was pissed about 10 minutes.

More rod info: There were floated and had TWO locks on each side of the pin. When my builder disassembled one of them he found the rods were NOT bushed! He said the pin bores in the pistons were galled and so were the rods ends. Who would do something like this?

So here is where I am at:

Block great except #8 may not be able to go another .030 (already at .030) to clean up. We are going to try.
Crank perfect
Rods junk
Pistons scuffed on skirts - one pitted/junk
Cam/lifters perfect
Timing chain junk
452 heads 2.14 intake/1.81 stainless exhaust
intake is unported (not even matched!), exhaust is ported

Builder suggests a low deck and gave me a 400 block we will get sonic checked

Question for all:

Build a 451/470/499/512? Which one and why? Turn my 440 crank down or replace?

Overbore/sleeve 440 stroke that

I need 650hp
 
well, the simplest would be the low deck 451, it'll rev very quick [lite rotating assembly]
and just needs the counter weights ground down to clear the pan rails/block.

the hot ticket [more work/money] is the 471 or 493/499, but now you need more part$ and you end up with pinned oil rings cause the piston pin ends up where the oil ring lands are.

you can get 600hp out of either, you'll find 550hp is plenty on the street.lol
 
slant6/4speed said:
There was no 68 440 six pack engine. The six pack came out in late 69.
Click to expand...
The engines were put together earlier. A mid to late '68 casting block could have made it into a 6bbl car.

You need 650hp? None of the parts you have (maybe the block if either the 400 or the 440 block sonic test well) should be used to get that level. What sort of use are you expecting to get from this engine? I'd be using the 400 block and getting a good crank, good rods, and great pistons as a start. Depending on your use the rest of the parts can be all over the place...
 
moper said:
The engines were put together earlier. A mid to late '68 casting block could have made it into a 6bbl car.

You need 650hp? None of the parts you have (maybe the block if either the 400 or the 440 block sonic test well) should be used to get that level. What sort of use are you expecting to get from this engine? I'd be using the 400 block and getting a good crank, good rods, and great pistons as a start. Depending on your use the rest of the parts can be all over the place...
Click to expand...

My goal is a 10.0 car on 275's. The chassis is done it's a coil over front with rack and a Caltrac rear. I have a Super Powershot nitrous kit with Cheater solenoids I can bump into the 9's if needed. It looks like I need to go 400 if just for the block strength and lighter piston/rods/crank. I have Stage 6 heads available my friend is holding them but I don't have to buy them. It needs to run on pump gas. I have a built JW 727 with an 8" 4000 stall JW converter which I think will be close enough. I am running 3.91 gears and a 28 inch tall tire. I will need to cross the traps at around 7,000 rpm with that setup.
 
How heavy is the car? Steel cage and body?
10.0s is hauling *** for a street car, on pump fuel, on street tires, on a leaf suspension, that I think should scale around 3100 w/o driver. You need to make another 100hp just to hit low 10s, nevermind 9s. Also, 3.91s and 28" tires at 7K should be close to 138mph. I just don't think 650hp will be enough if this weighs what a street car weighs.
 
True 10 sec pump gas street car threw the mufflers.

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Ran the time off the juice.
With a 250 shot it would run in the nine's
The engine is just a well thought out 440 .030 over.
11.3-1 comp
28" tire's 4.10 gears
126 trap speed and trap rpm's about 6400.
With 3.91's it would be 6100 rpm's
Car weighs 3000 w/o driver.
3500rpm nitrios Converter.

Bigger engine would put less stress on the parts.
 
If you can use the 440 block, or you want to use the 400, I would go to 440 source site and check out the stroker kits they sell. I run a 440 with the 512 stroker kit with there girdle kit and think they sell quallity kits for the money. I'm very impressed with mine. First time out it ran a 6.68 at 105mph in the 1/8mile(EASY PASS). 410 gear, Eldelbrock 88cc heads and 1050 dominator, 5500 stall, drag radials.
 
Mopar-Man said:
That's okay, just a learning experience for me. I'm over it. I think I was pissed about 10 minutes.

More rod info: There were floated and had TWO locks on each side of the pin. When my builder disassembled one of them he found the rods were NOT bushed! He said the pin bores in the pistons were galled and so were the rods ends. Who would do something like this?

So here is where I am at:

Block great except #8 may not be able to go another .030 (already at .030) to clean up. We are going to try.
Crank perfect
Rods junk
Pistons scuffed on skirts - one pitted/junk
Cam/lifters perfect
Timing chain junk
452 heads 2.14 intake/1.81 stainless exhaust
intake is unported (not even matched!), exhaust is ported

Builder suggests a low deck and gave me a 400 block we will get sonic checked

Question for all:

Build a 451/470/499/512? Which one and why? Turn my 440 crank down or replace?

Overbore/sleeve 440 stroke that

I need 650hp
Click to expand...

2 locks, and not bushed. I would like to see bulder's pic's of that.
 
moper said:
How heavy is the car? Steel cage and body?
10.0s is hauling *** for a street car, on pump fuel, on street tires, on a leaf suspension, that I think should scale around 3100 w/o driver. You need to make another 100hp just to hit low 10s, nevermind 9s. Also, 3.91s and 28" tires at 7K should be close to 138mph. I just don't think 650hp will be enough if this weighs what a street car weighs.
Click to expand...

It should weigh 3000 when finished because it is front halved. I figured 7,000 rpm through the traps so the 451 is a good idea with a girdle and studs. I have a fully adjustable coil over front end and a Caltrac rear so I know the car will hook. What heads do I need to make enough power for 10.0's?
 
I typically think "street car" and that's why I'm saying with a combo not optimized for drag racing it will take more power to run the numbers. I'd be starting to look at the Indy -1 max wedge port EZs. I think thses can run the number with a good valve job and without any porting, can run under chassis headers if you want, and have some room for growth. B wedge engines with raised exh ports can be problematic and expensive. I'd still be looking to give it more gear and not have to worry so much about the low end torque.
 
Sorry to here about your luck.. I had the same thing happen to me in my mud bog truck. The crank bearings looked good but the rod bearings was scared up. Its a 30 over 440 with ross pistons H beam rods with ARP rod bolts. stock steel crank turned 10/10, People said It was turned to high rpm. It has a solid lift 284/284 525/525 mopar purple cam with 452 heads with 1.5 gold crane roller rockers..
 
I run Eldebrock 88cc heads with mild port job, they made made my car run in the 10s. A 6.68 pass equals to about a 10.42 in the 1/4 mile. I paid the guy 500.00 to open up my heads thats on top of what I paid for the heads. Also you have to factor in what cam you will be using with you combo.
 
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