A833 leaks

[1MeanA]

Ok onto another problem with the newly restored Dart. I had someone rebuild the gearbox and now it leaks when sitting...not sure if it leaks when the engine is running or just sitting but its a pretty bad leak. From the pics you can see there is no oil in the bellhousing or to be seen on the front bearing cover. It looks to be leaking between the gearbox front face and bellhousing front face....counter shaft? Otherwise the gearbox is fine although its tough to get into 1/2 when cold for the first mile. I'm running Castrol 80W90 GL4 I think. I should have the gearbox on the floor in the next few days.

 

[jimjimjimmy]

That burns *** .

 

[Oldiron440]

Is the case itself leaking from a crack?

 

[Kendog 170]

The seal for reverse shaft linkage is prone to leak. Was the seal (O-ring) changed? Can't tell what your showing. Is that the front from the inspection cover?

 

[dano]

Could be leaking from rear main seal, oil pressure line by the distributor (if you have a stock sender there they can leak with age) or the back of the intake was not sealed well and it leaks when the motor is running and maybe valve cover gasket.

 

[AJ/FormS]

As to problem #1
That is highly unusual for a Non-overdrive to be leaking there.
But I have a guess.
When a NEW front bearing is installed, the large outer snapring that it comes with, has to be trashed, and the factory one re-installed. This is because the supplied one is both thicker and has a larger outer diameter, and the retainer will NOT accept it.
When the retainer is torqued, it may feel tight, but with the big snap-ring in there, it is NOT tight to the case.
Usually when this happens, the retainer is cracked at the boltholes and it will never seal again. Inspect it carefully.

As for problem #2
as for being hard to engage first and second;
1) did you dial indicate your BH to be sure the crank and the transmission centerlines are on the same axis? If you didn't line them up, this can and will affect your clutch departure, enough to allow your disc to drag, and then the cluster is spinning even with the clutch pedal on the floor. That always makes getting into First-gear atta stop, an adventure.
2) if you're running full-synthetic oil, get it outta there and flush the trans with diesel at least twice, spinning it both times to flush the diesel into every nook and cranny.
3) Listen; I have rebuilt hundreds of manual transmissions maybe thousands, including dozens of those A833s, and not one of them ever liked full-synthetic, it's just too slippery.
The brass rings depend on FRICTION to work, and they have to GRAB the brake-cones. I have even modified both the brass and the cones in a feeble attempt to try to use synthetic, and notta chance. Finally in desperation, I flushed the synthetic out and Shazzam, just like magic, my previous recipe worked perfect.
>Some guys may show up here with their success stories, they always do, but ignore them; their boxes are one-ofs and are not the norm, just get that synthetic out.
4) But if your 85/90 is regular dino-oil, then that trans will have to come apart, for to inspect the brass and to rough up the brake-cones. I do that by chucking each gear in a small lathe, and rough-polishing the cones with 100grit cloth-roll. Each brake has to be polished in a specific direction, to put the screw on it in the correct direction for upshifting; except First gear, I bias that one for downshifting.
All brass rings need to be PERFECTLY round, and sit high up on the cones. When you lay the brass on the cone, gently press down, and turn the gear in it's normal direction (except reverse). It should immediately lock on, and refuse to budge, and may be difficult to disengage.
Used brass is fine if it meets the above requirements. However, used brass have to be carefully selected in such manner that Second and Third gears get the highest-sitting/ best braking ones, so that all the brass-rings wear out at about the same rate. Otherwise, you could be going back in sooner than expected to replace just one brass.
5) my oil of choice is a 50/50 recipe of Dextron III and 85/90EP, NO Synthetics.
I prefer full Dextron, it shifts a lil faster and easier, but it's harder on the clusterpin. 30% EP is enough in the short term, but at 50%, my transmissions seem to go more than 10 years; and it's always the Second-gear brass that wears out first.
In those time when I have run my A833s in winter, I have sometimes switched to 100% ATF.

Notes
1) the biasing screw that I put on the cones, doesn't last forever. Maybe two summers. You'll notice that shifting is not as fast as it once was. Eventually, you'll be waiting for the gears to slow down, and if you rush it, it will grind.
2) as for clutch departure, .080 is usually lots. You adjust this with the freeplay. The usual starting point is 1 inch of freeplay. This will get you about a year between adjustments. This adjustment is not critical; I run a lot less, but the penalty is having to adjust it every spring, and maybe again later. The benefit is quicker shifts. If I need more departure, like for snicking into reverse which is Not synchronized, I just push the pedal further down, and with 50/50 oil, I gotta wait a bit for everything to stop spinning; that's just the way it is.
3) If you want lightning shifts at 7000, yur gunna need some of Brewers Street Slick-shifted Synchronizers. Don't be afraid of them.
4) Since my first Mopar, back in 1970, I have almost always had a car with an A833. Until recently, I still had in stock, at least one example of each of the small-block A833s; but I finally sold the T/A..

 

[1MeanA]

Is the case itself leaking from a crack?

I'm not going to think about that possibility...unlikely I would say

Could be leaking from rear main seal, oil pressure line by the distributor (if you have a stock sender there they can leak with age) or the back of the intake was not sealed well and it leaks when the motor is running and maybe valve cover gasket.

No there is no oil coming down from the top of the bellhousing.

That is highly unusual for a Non-overdrive to be leaking there.
But I have a guess.
When a NEW front bearing is installed, the large outer snapring that it comes with, has to be trashed, and the factory one reinstalled. This is because the supplied one is both thicker and has a larger outer diameter, and the retainer will NOT accept it.
When the retainer is torqued, it may feel tight, but with the big snap-ring in there, it is NOT tight to the case.
Usually when this happens, the retainer is cracked at the boltholes and it will never seal again.

Problem #2
as for being hard to engage first and second;
1) if you're running full-synthetic oil, get it outta there and flush the trans with diesel, at least twice, spinning it both times to flush the diesel into every nook and cranny.
2) Listen I have rebuilt dozens of those transmissions, and not one of them ever liked full-synthetic, it's just too slippery.
The brass rings depend on FRICTION to work, and they have to GRAB the brakes. I have even modified both the brass and the brakes in a feeble attempt to try to use synthetic, and notta chance. Finally in desperation, I flushed the synthetic out and Shazzam, just like magic, my previous recipe worked perfect.
Some guys may show up here with their success stories, they always do, but ignore them; their boxes are one-ofs and are not the norm, get that synthetic out.
3) But if your 85/90 is regular dino-oil, then that trans will have to come apart, for to inspect the brass and to rough up the brake-cones. I do that by chucking each gear in a small lathe, and rough-polishing the cones with 100grit cloth-roll. Each brake has to be polished in a specific direction, to put the screw on it in the correct direction for upshifting; except First gear, I bias that one for downshifting.
All brass rings need to be PERFECTLY round, and sit high up on the cones. Used brass is

It doesn't appear to be leaking from the bearing retainer but its a bit hard to tell. I will find out this weekend. The guy who rebuilt it does quite a few A833s so hopefully its not expensive miss.

I looked in my lube cabinet to see if I had leftover oil. I see some Motel 85W90 which is semi-synthetic...I doubt I would have used that but maybe I didn't realize it wasn't dino....something else I should have written down. Its surprisingly discolored for only having less than 100 miles on it...looks more like my break in engine oil did after a dozen run hours. I do remember having difficulty finding a GL4 85W90 dino oil around here.

ps you did say you used MT90 in the past. It's fully synthetic.

 

[1MeanA]

I got the transmission separated on the lift but can't get it out without disassembling the TTI exhaust or cutting it. If the H pipe had been a little further back I would have been ok. I do have a couple of the wide butt joint band clamps so maybe I'll cut it. Its not obvious where it was leaking from. The weep holes is dry which I already knew from looking in the bellhousing through the inspection cover. The countershaft has some silicone on it. I might have to refill it and see when I get it down tomorrow. Saturday afternoon is for the grandkids.

 

[AJ/FormS]

FYI;
I cut my H-pipe out to fit a GVod. That enabled me to take my aluminum-cased trans down in 17 minutes, on a 4-post drive-on lift ............ back when I was in my mid 50s, lol.(I'm 72 now)
I gotta tell you tho, I lost a significant amount of low-rpm torque, below 2000rpm. After spending a few hours on the tune looking for it, I gave up.
My final solution was a lower first gear, 3.09 versus 2.66. Problem solved.

 

[1MeanA]

FYI;
I cut my H-pipe out to fit a GVod. That enabled me to take my aluminum-cased trans down in 17 minutes, on a 4-post drive-on lift ............ back when I was in my mid 50s, lol.(I'm 72 now)
I gotta tell you tho, I lost a significant amount of low-rpm torque, below 2000rpm. After spending a few hours on the tune looking for it, I gave up.
My final solution was a lower first gear, 3.09 versus 2.66. Problem solved.

I ended up cutting the crossover. I'll make up a removeable section with some band clamps. It will be nice if I ever have to do the clutch.

 

[1MeanA]

After letting it sit overnight there is a very slight weep from the countershaft (one drip overnight). It doesn't explain the volume I was seeing on the floor though. Anybody had success sealing the countershaft? Don't say RTV or a plug as it had RTV in it and there is no room for a plug Part of me says to disassemble, move the countershaft back and Loctite 609 it.

I pulled the side cover to have a peek. I pushed the 1/2 selector ring to 2nd and couldn't push it back without pushing down one of the sliders (strut key?)? I tried it again and had the same observation. Is this normal?

 

[AJ/FormS]

s this normal?

No, you overshifted it. You'll have to gently nudge those struts back home, into the notches, one atta time. Make sure the energizer springs don't slip between the struts and the blocker rings. They need stay under the struts.
It will be Ok .

As for the clusterpin ; and you are absolutely sure it's leaking;
1) If you have a cast iron case,
then the clusterpin is supposed to be a pretty tight press-fit into that front hole. There is no way that should ever leak.
The thing is that, in gears one thru three, the power from the crank goes down from the input into the cluster drive, forcing them apart. IMO, and I'm guessing, that any locking agent you put on there from the outside, will not be effective, and to put it on from the inside is barely possible, and again, IMO, will get banged out before long.
Therefore, I suggest a complete teardown, for inspection to see which or both, is in need of repair or replacement.

2) If you have an alloy case,
and because I don't see a receiver ledge for an expansion plug, it cannot be a Mopar FMJ case, unless it's a rebuilt FMJ, which was converted to non floating clusterpin, and they failed to dimension it properly. What I did to mine was have a machineshop fabricate a bushing, lock it in there, then ream the bushing to a modest pressfit to a new pin. Problem solved.

3) I guess, if we're talking Alloy cases, you might have a Passon Performance case, like I do, but mine was/is dimensioned just right.

 

[1MeanA]

No, you overshifted it. You'll have to gently nudge those struts back home, into the notches, one atta time. It will be Ok .

OK good. I didn't have an in car issue with it. The issue was difficulty getting into 1 or 2 when cold. The selector seems to move fine otherwise.

 

[AJ/FormS]

OK good. I didn't have an in car issue with it. The issue was difficulty getting into 1 or 2 when cold. The selector seems to move fine otherwise.

Yeah that was discussed earlier. Start with more clutch departure. Perhaps your disc is warped, swollen, or bent, or just out of alignment. If more departure doesn't help, and yur running dino-oil, then IMHO, the trans needs to come apart.

 

[1MeanA]

Clutch is new and there is lots of free play at the clutch. No dino oil in it(semi synthetic). I'll run something different this time...maybe a ATF/dino oil blend. You've said you run the MT90 which is synthetic. I see Brewers carries PennGrade 1® Classic GL-4 Gear Oil SAE 80W-90 which is likely not available up here.

 

[Inertia]

which is likely not available up here.

Lol . . . He is up here , lol

I run the Castrol dino for brass synchros, no issues.
I don't like synthetic.
I find if I pull them into 2nd gear first, then go to 1st seems easier.
Was told that by an old Mopar racer decades ago, seems to work for me.

Good luck

 

[1MeanA]

Lol . . . He is up here , lol

I run the Castrol dino for brass synchros, no issues.
I don't like synthetic.
I find if I pull them into 2nd gear first, then go to 1st seems easier.
Was told that by an old Mopar racer decades ago, seems to work for me.

Good luck

Brewers is in Ohio. I don't see a Castrol GL4 dino oil in there product line up anymore.

 

[Inertia]

Brewers is in Ohio. I don't see a Castrol GL4 dino oil in there product line up anymore.

Sorry eh, - thought you were responding to AJ, he's up here.

 

[AJ/FormS]

I find if I pull them into 2nd gear first, then go to 1st seems easier.
Was told that by an old Mopar racer decades ago, seems to work for me.

Good luck

That works because the Second gear brass is still working and it stops the guts from spinning, then the First gear brass has nothing to do.
As soon as you take it out of Second, the guts are likely to begin spinning again, and if you hesitate on the 2-1 shift yur likely to be back in the same pickle.

If the engine is idling at say 800 rpm, with the clutch pedal down, and if the clutch is dragging, then the cluster will be spinning at close to the same rpm. When the cluster is spinning, all the mainshaft gears are spinning.
If the vehicle is stopped, so is the output shaft, and both synchronizers.
When you go to select First gear, which is the slowest spinning gear in there, the brass is fighting the dragging clutch. If it cannot do it but Second can, then the First gear brass has a problem.
The possibilities are; I mean besides the dragging clutch are;
1) oil is too slippery, or
2) oil is too viscous, ie cold or thick.
3) a glazed brake cone, or
4) a bent or worn-out brass.
5) if it grinds, weakazz energizer-springs.
6) a bad fork, which is highly unlikely.

But I can't stress this enough, if it's not grinding, the next most likely thing is that disc is not coming to a stop.
You can prove this by trying to engage third gear at a stop. Clutch it and the Shifter should nearly instantly go into third. If you gotta keep the pressure on and wait, what yur doing is physically braking the spinning third gear..... which is spinning cuz the disc is. The thicker or slipperier your oil is, the longer it's gunna take.

 

[1MeanA]

Dino oil is often recommended. One thing I am finding is that GL4 dino/conventional gear oil is nearly extinct. Brewer's used to recommend CRC Sta-Lube which doesn't appear to be available anymore and wasn't stocked around here anyway. Now they recommend Penngrade which I can get from Ontario (2000 miles away). I may have to try one of the dedicated gearbox oils that people say they have had success with such as Pennzoil Syncromesh or Redline MT90 (31$/litre!).

 

[1MeanA]

Got my 1/2 shift fork and Penngrade 80W90. Hopefully its an improvement.
Note: the stub shaft? is shorter on the steel fork. Brewer's says that's how they come and they work fine. The name 'Liberty' is cast into it.