All 318 Plugs on Passenger side smell of fuel...

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318MoparGuy

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but all the driver's side bank is fine. Here's what is going on, I put a brand new Ed.1406 (electric choke) on approx. a month ago and my mechanic was making adjustments to it. I noticed while at idle, that it was running rich out the right side straight dual exhaust (pax side)and so I had the mechanic pull all plugs. The drivers side plugs were perfect...good color and such, but the pass. side one's smelled of fuel. The mechanic pulled the metering rods thinking maybe they weren't the same from the factory (quality control check), but they were. He then pulled the carb to check it all out and also pulled the jets at the same time...98's on both sides..ok there. He has a 1405 (manual choke) that he wants to put on temporarily to see if possibly there is a problem with the electric choke. He is a very thorough guy and it is bugging him as to what could be causing this condition. The 1406 fast idles fine and reg. idles fine, but as to what is happening now is really weird. Has anyone heard of this happening and what can be done to rectify it? Can you go to a leaner jet like a 92 on pax side...I wouldn't think you could run a 98 jet on the driver's side and a 92 to lean out the pass side plug condition. Is that doable? The plugs are Champion RN14YC, but I am thinking of going to a NGK plug..any suggestions to plug #? I would appreciate all thoughts concerning this situation. Many thanks in advance....
Greg
 
That's a strange one alright. If your running a dual plane intake, either side of the carb will go to a couple ports on each side of the engine, not just right or left.
 
That's a strange one alright. If your running a dual plane intake, either side of the carb will go to a couple ports on each side of the engine, not just right or left.

Thanks OMR...yes I am running a Ed. dual plane Performer intake...meant to add that. Also the 318 has a Summit mild hydraulic cam and yes I totally agree...a real strange one. PO had a Ed. 1407 (750) with electric choke on it and I didn't really notice any problems at that point in time as I soon put on the brand new 1406. What plugs do you like? Appreciate your response.......
 
This is strange.
Do you know the history on the motor?
Do a compression check on all 8.
My daughters v-6 dakota burnt the exhaust valves on the drivers side loosing compression but the passenger side was ok.

Also did it start running rich after the cam change, maybe the cam is not ground right?
 
I have no idea, but, I would strongly suspect Edelbrock quality control on this one and why;

- Edelbrock is known for having shoddy quality control on the new Performer intakes. There are several threads here, that I have read within the past few months, regarding severe core shift on the castings. If you were catching a core shift issue on the rich side, it could be diverting air on one head and taking more fuel in on one side.

- I put a 1406 on a 350 that went into a '55 Studebaker at 5400ft. I popped the top to change jets and I was greeted with a spare Torx screw in one of the float bowls. Hello!

I'd go over that carburetor with a fine tooth comb. Get a wire gauge on the passages and check the jets out, with a wire gauge, if you can. I got a set of replacement jets in from Comp Cams, to replace the ones in my Demon. The replacement jets from Holley/Demon had the wrong packaging numbered and I was given the wrong jets. I've also seen jet numbers improperly stamped, although that is rare.

Since this is an entire cylinder bank issue, I don't think the carb is necessarily the issue. Dual plane runners switch up cylinder banks, per side on the carb, so if it were the carb (two runners would be rich on one side, two on the other, following the path of the runners), you would see rich cylinders following the runners on that side of the carb. Not an entire bank.

I'm thinking you've got something going on with an intake centering problem, likely due to core shift. If the 1405 that your mechanic has does the same thing on your engine, or if you can get another carb on it, have him put the sniffer on each bank with another carb.

If it does the same thing, I'd pull that intake, pull the index pegs from the block and center it up with alignment marks on the heads and intake runner divider walls. Don't be surprised if you have to file the bolt holes to get it to do what you need it to do.
 
I have no idea, but, I would strongly suspect Edelbrock quality control on this one and why;

- Edelbrock is known for having shoddy quality control on the new Performer intakes. There are several threads here, that I have read within the past few months, regarding severe core shift on the castings. If you were catching a core shift issue on the rich side, it could be diverting air on one head and taking more fuel in on one side.

- I put a 1406 on a 350 that went into a '55 Studebaker at 5400ft. I popped the top to change jets and I was greeted with a spare Torx screw in one of the float bowls. Hello!

I'd go over that carburetor with a fine tooth comb. Get a wire gauge on the passages and check the jets out, with a wire gauge, if you can. I got a set of replacement jets in from Comp Cams, to replace the ones in my Demon. The replacement jets from Holley/Demon had the wrong packaging numbered and I was given the wrong jets. I've also seen jet numbers improperly stamped, although that is rare.

Since this is an entire cylinder bank issue, I don't think the carb is necessarily the issue. Dual plane runners switch up cylinder banks, per side on the carb, so if it were the carb (two runners would be rich on one side, two on the other, following the path of the runners), you would see rich cylinders following the runners on that side of the carb. Not an entire bank.

I'm thinking you've got something going on with an intake centering problem, likely due to core shift. If the 1405 that your mechanic has does the same thing on your engine, or if you can get another carb on it, have him put the sniffer on each bank with another carb.

If it does the same thing, I'd pull that intake, pull the index pegs from the block and center it up with alignment marks on the heads and intake runner divider walls. Don't be surprised if you have to file the bolt holes to get it to do what you need it to do.
X2...while you got the intake off chk the cam
 
I have no idea, but, I would strongly suspect Edelbrock quality control on this one and why;

- Edelbrock is known for having shoddy quality control on the new Performer intakes. There are several threads here, that I have read within the past few months, regarding severe core shift on the castings. If you were catching a core shift issue on the rich side, it could be diverting air on one head and taking more fuel in on one side.

- I put a 1406 on a 350 that went into a '55 Studebaker at 5400ft. I popped the top to change jets and I was greeted with a spare Torx screw in one of the float bowls. Hello!

I'd go over that carburetor with a fine tooth comb. Get a wire gauge on the passages and check the jets out, with a wire gauge, if you can. I got a set of replacement jets in from Comp Cams, to replace the ones in my Demon. The replacement jets from Holley/Demon had the wrong packaging numbered and I was given the wrong jets. I've also seen jet numbers improperly stamped, although that is rare.

Since this is an entire cylinder bank issue, I don't think the carb is necessarily the issue. Dual plane runners switch up cylinder banks, per side on the carb, so if it were the carb (two runners would be rich on one side, two on the other, following the path of the runners), you would see rich cylinders following the runners on that side of the carb. Not an entire bank.

I'm thinking you've got something going on with an intake centering problem, likely due to core shift. If the 1405 that your mechanic has does the same thing on your engine, or if you can get another carb on it, have him put the sniffer on each bank with another carb.

If it does the same thing, I'd pull that intake, pull the index pegs from the block and center it up with alignment marks on the heads and intake runner divider walls. Don't be surprised if you have to file the bolt holes to get it to do what you need it to do.

Thanks Dave for your insight, never thought about possible internal intake casting problems. I will check on threads concerning Ed. Performer intake core shift issues. If it comes down to pulling the intake, I will check on gaskets presently installed....I read that some FABO guys like metal gaskets on cast iron heads and some like composite gaskets (like a Fel-Pro) for aluminum intakes and any combos in between. What are your thoughts on gasket type because if I have to pull the intake, then I want to put the proper gasket on to seal it up tight. What gasket type/brand/ model # do you prefer? I left a message with my mechanic with yours and other responses to give him some food for thought. Since you mentioned a possible casting issue, would the inside area have to be ground down where it's not casted right? Thanks again to all for their responses and if anyone else has any ideas, please chime in....I will keep you all posted on the outcome of this one.
All the Best,
Greg
 
Thanks Dave for your insight, never thought about possible internal intake casting problems. I will check on threads concerning Ed. Performer intake core shift issues. If it comes down to pulling the intake, I will check on gaskets presently installed....I read that some FABO guys like metal gaskets on cast iron heads and some like composite gaskets (like a Fel-Pro) for aluminum intakes and any combos in between. What are your thoughts on gasket type because if I have to pull the intake, then I want to put the proper gasket on to seal it up tight. What gasket type/brand/ model # do you prefer? I left a message with my mechanic with yours and other responses to give him some food for thought. Since you mentioned a possible casting issue, would the inside area have to be ground down where it's not casted right? Thanks again to all for their responses and if anyone else has any ideas, please chime in....I will keep you all posted on the outcome of this one.
All the Best,
Greg

Any other thoughts out there about this condition and what gasket type/brand should I use? I appreciate everyone's input...Thanks, Greg
 
Here is what I read, about Edelbrock Performer intakes;

The castings may, or may not take a centering correction, depending on how far off the runners are.

When they cast the cores, typical shifting issues don't occur between the paired runners, but rather, between pairs on the entire bank.

So, when you look at the sides, measuring them, on core shifted intakes, they may look something like;

[][]_____[][] on one side and
[][]______[][] on the other.

We're not talking about a huge difference. It only takes 3/16" to throw an intake off that needs re-centered.

The reason is because of the thin, divider wall between runner pairings. The walls on the outsides can be corrected easier than the divider, because you can't move more than 1/8" from the inner walls, to help it even up.

Another issue you may see with core shift is an entire bank not aligning with the bolt holes drilled through the intake. They set the intakes up on a jig and CNC drill them for bolt pattern and alignment dowel holes (if yours has the holes).

Most new intakes that I've seen have them. The old ones didn't, because it was assumed that you would center and check the intake. Manufacturers these days are under the assumption that casting quality control is higher. On some cases, this is true, with core shift on newer engine blocks and cylinder heads. Even the walls of the sand castings are smoother, but you never know unless you measure the areas of concern on any part, new or old, for yourself.

What happens when either the bolt pattern up top, or the index peg holes are drilled too far forward or backward is that you get alignment issues on either one or both entire cylinder banks. If the ports on one side have shifted forward or rearward, this may not show up on a measurement check between sides, but you should still measure for paired runners spreading from the other pair on that bank.

Along with the rocker shaft issue that moparlover pointed out, pushrod length, deck height and cylinder head decking on combustion and intake sides all have some play in it.

I would assume that the engine runs rough, considering that one side is inherently making more power than another.

One other issue to look at, as you've suspected, would be an intake gasket leak on one bank. If the intake wasn't milled properly, one of the heads varies in it's mating surface, compared to the other (milling done on combustion or intake plane side) or if the cylinder head casting on the mating surface of one head is simply not sealing, you could have a vacuum leak.

My guess is that you have a combination of issues on one bank, that a good composite gasket set and centering job can take care of, without grinding.

To center the intake, pull it, clean everything, lay the gaskets on the heads and make sure that they center on the runners. They usually do.

Flip the intake over and lay the gaskets on the intake runners. put the bolts in, backwards (easier, as it is upsideown) to show you where the gaskets will want to sit on the intake, when it's bolted together.

This should show you core shift. You can see interference from the gasket to intake runners on one bank if you have pairing shift. If not, you are ok with spacing, per side, but the intake still may have core shift and that will show with the next step.

After you've determined that each side is correct to itself, mark the centers of the thin divider walls of each runner pairing, do the same on the heads, so that you can see both sets of witness marks when the intake is on. Plop the intake on, with the gaskets in place on the heads and no sealant.

Line one side up and look at the other. If it is off, the distance that it is out is exactly half of the distance you move it, in that direction. If it's further than 1/16" you may consider removing material from the left side on one bank and right side on the other bank, in whichever direction you need it to move.

To be sure about how much material you should take off (only on the side of the runners that needs to move), make a witness mark on the gasket. If you have composite gaskets, be sure to index them on the head with the plastic index inserts that come with the gasket, then mark the gasket.

Make a second mark on the gaskets after the intake is corrected/ centered on both heads. Take the gaskets off with the intake again, flip them over and align the 2nd/ corrected/ centered marks. You should see how much the gaskets interfere. Corrections should be made to the gasket, where it overlaps the opening and to the intake runner on the other side that shows.

If your mechanic has one, a fog machine can show intake vacuum leaks if you have any. Sucks the fog into the leak. Starter fluid sprayed at the intake plenum mating surface on each side can also detect leaks when running. A cheap way to make a temp fog machine is to use a wide mouth drink bottle and put some dry ice and water in it so that you get a good amount of fog coming from it, then hold the opening near the intake, or cut a hole in the lid for a hose and set the hose end near the intake. The pressure from the c02 coming off of the dry ice will feed the fog out of the hose.
 
Starter fluid is the easiest way, but a fair warning, it can screw up engine paint that is new, so you may want to test it on a small spot that is inconspicuous, before hosing your intake with shots of it. If it's leaking, the engine RPM will jump.
 
If it's rich on an entire bank, it's a problem. It can cause balancing issues and there is HP to be found by making all of the plugs read the same, no matter if it's one or all of them showing the wrong coloration.

A slightly darker plug here and there could be an individual runner thing that could be an insignificant anomaly, depending on what the engine does (race or street) and how quickly or severely discoloration develops. If he's seeing fuel soaked plugs, that is beyond carbon, the engine is going to see cylinder wash and lots of wear on that side, eventually fouling oil before change is due, wear on cam/ bearings/etc.

A good tune means that all the cylinders share the same chemistry and mechanical characteristics.
 
Starter fluid is the easiest way, but a fair warning, it can screw up engine paint that is new, so you may want to test it on a small spot that is inconspicuous, before hosing your intake with shots of it. If it's leaking, the engine RPM will jump.


Starter fluid is easiest for what? Checking for vacuum leaks? Sorry Dave, but I gotta disagree. I cannot for the everlovin life of my why in the world people insist on using dangerous flammable liquids to find vacuum leaks, when water in a spray bottle will do it just as easily without a meltdown. I can never agree with literally pouring gas on a fire. It's a stupid thing to do.
 
Thanks to all...I certainly do appreciate your taking the time to respond. Will keep you posted as to outcome.
All the Best,
Greg
 
Here is what I read, about Edelbrock Performer intakes;

The castings may, or may not take a centering correction, depending on how far off the runners are.

When they cast the cores, typical shifting issues don't occur between the paired runners, but rather, between pairs on the entire bank.

So, when you look at the sides, measuring them, on core shifted intakes, they may look something like;

[][]_____[][] on one side and
[][]______[][] on the other.

We're not talking about a huge difference. It only takes 3/16" to throw an intake off that needs re-centered.

The reason is because of the thin, divider wall between runner pairings. The walls on the outsides can be corrected easier than the divider, because you can't move more than 1/8" from the inner walls, to help it even up.

Another issue you may see with core shift is an entire bank not aligning with the bolt holes drilled through the intake. They set the intakes up on a jig and CNC drill them for bolt pattern and alignment dowel holes (if yours has the holes).

Most new intakes that I've seen have them. The old ones didn't, because it was assumed that you would center and check the intake. Manufacturers these days are under the assumption that casting quality control is higher. On some cases, this is true, with core shift on newer engine blocks and cylinder heads. Even the walls of the sand castings are smoother, but you never know unless you measure the areas of concern on any part, new or old, for yourself.

What happens when either the bolt pattern up top, or the index peg holes are drilled too far forward or backward is that you get alignment issues on either one or both entire cylinder banks. If the ports on one side have shifted forward or rearward, this may not show up on a measurement check between sides, but you should still measure for paired runners spreading from the other pair on that bank.

Along with the rocker shaft issue that moparlover pointed out, pushrod length, deck height and cylinder head decking on combustion and intake sides all have some play in it.

I would assume that the engine runs rough, considering that one side is inherently making more power than another.

One other issue to look at, as you've suspected, would be an intake gasket leak on one bank. If the intake wasn't milled properly, one of the heads varies in it's mating surface, compared to the other (milling done on combustion or intake plane side) or if the cylinder head casting on the mating surface of one head is simply not sealing, you could have a vacuum leak.

My guess is that you have a combination of issues on one bank, that a good composite gasket set and centering job can take care of, without grinding.

To center the intake, pull it, clean everything, lay the gaskets on the heads and make sure that they center on the runners. They usually do.

Flip the intake over and lay the gaskets on the intake runners. put the bolts in, backwards (easier, as it is upsideown) to show you where the gaskets will want to sit on the intake, when it's bolted together.

This should show you core shift. You can see interference from the gasket to intake runners on one bank if you have pairing shift. If not, you are ok with spacing, per side, but the intake still may have core shift and that will show with the next step.

After you've determined that each side is correct to itself, mark the centers of the thin divider walls of each runner pairing, do the same on the heads, so that you can see both sets of witness marks when the intake is on. Plop the intake on, with the gaskets in place on the heads and no sealant.

Line one side up and look at the other. If it is off, the distance that it is out is exactly half of the distance you move it, in that direction. If it's further than 1/16" you may consider removing material from the left side on one bank and right side on the other bank, in whichever direction you need it to move.

To be sure about how much material you should take off (only on the side of the runners that needs to move), make a witness mark on the gasket. If you have composite gaskets, be sure to index them on the head with the plastic index inserts that come with the gasket, then mark the gasket.

Make a second mark on the gaskets after the intake is corrected/ centered on both heads. Take the gaskets off with the intake again, flip them over and align the 2nd/ corrected/ centered marks. You should see how much the gaskets interfere. Corrections should be made to the gasket, where it overlaps the opening and to the intake runner on the other side that shows.

If your mechanic has one, a fog machine can show intake vacuum leaks if you have any. Sucks the fog into the leak. Starter fluid sprayed at the intake plenum mating surface on each side can also detect leaks when running. A cheap way to make a temp fog machine is to use a wide mouth drink bottle and put some dry ice and water in it so that you get a good amount of fog coming from it, then hold the opening near the intake, or cut a hole in the lid for a hose and set the hose end near the intake. The pressure from the c02 coming off of the dry ice will feed the fog out of the hose.

Thank you dave for taking the time to explain the whole core shift thing and gasket centering technique...appreciate it. Keeping fingers crossed that it's just a intake gasket leak.......
 
do you have a heat riser on it ?

Other then the fact that you just recently put the carb on...This^^^^^makes total sense. Could be a coincidence, but if your running iron manifolds, I'd look into it.

What "bdusted440" means is, the flapper valve on the passenger side manifold where the downpipe connects.
 
Other then the fact that you just recently put the carb on...This^^^^^makes total sense. Could be a coincidence, but if your running iron manifolds, I'd look into it.

What "bdusted440" means is, the flapper valve on the passenger side manifold where the downpipe connects.

I too was thing intake manifold not exh manifold. :violent1:

If you DO NOT have header and are using the stock exh manifold, this could vary well be your problem.

Were the exh manifold bolts up to the exh piping, there should be a round piece of steel attached to a shaft the goes inside of the manifold. there is a butterfly in side kinda like on you carb. there is a spring that closed the butter fly when its cold and opens up when warm. They like to rust and quit working. IF IT IS RUSTED SHUT, you have found your problem!!!!!!!
 
I too was thing intake manifold not exh manifold. :violent1:

If you DO NOT have header and are using the stock exh manifold, this could vary well be your problem.

Were the exh manifold bolts up to the exh piping, there should be a round piece of steel attached to a shaft the goes inside of the manifold. there is a butterfly in side kinda like on you carb. there is a spring that closed the butter fly when its cold and opens up when warm. They like to rust and quit working. IF IT IS RUSTED SHUT, you have found your problem!!!!!!!

Can that be re-conditioned to operate again? (and best way to do that if possible) or is replacement only option? If replacement, can they still be found? Thanks to all for putting their thinking caps on...much appreciated and will check on that too soon. I don't have headers and stock exhaust manifolds are on.
 
Other then the fact that you just recently put the carb on...This^^^^^makes total sense. Could be a coincidence, but if your running iron manifolds, I'd look into it.

What "bdusted440" means is, the flapper valve on the passenger side manifold where the downpipe connects.

If the heat riser/flapper valve is rusted and no replacement is available, what would be the next best thing to do concerning this? Also, can it be removed or is it essential if you have iron manifolds? Thanks...Greg
 
If it is rusted shut, remove the manifold, knock the flapper valve out, tap the holes to the closest size pipe thread (you may need to drill them out a tad) and seal them off with pipe plugs. Make sure to use high temp RTV on the pipe plugs.

Although if the valve is not rusted badly and only stuck, it is entirely possible you can use something like PBlaster and free it up. I've done lots of them that way.
 
If it is rusted shut, remove the manifold, knock the flapper valve out, tap the holes to the closest size pipe thread (you may need to drill them out a tad) and seal them off with pipe plugs. Make sure to use high temp RTV on the pipe plugs.

Although if the valve is not rusted badly and only stuck, it is entirely possible you can use something like PBlaster and free it up. I've done lots of them that way.

Thanks Rob for your help....always appreciated...and also what is the purpose of the heat riser? Thanks...
 
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