All cylinders filling with water

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"much" better then Felpro's.......interesting? I'm staying tuned and good luck tomorrow. Hate to see you have to go thru this.........Don't forget, with all this other stuff occuring, that you still have a cam that needs breaking in. :mrgreen:
 
HemiTM said:
I have a feeling it was a stud issue. Not compressing tthe gasket properly. I honestly do not know what brand head gasket is being used. The guy that did my machine work handed them to me this morning and said "here, use these they are much better than the Felpro`s"

The reason I am waiting on torquing them.....I am be patient and letting everything settle in so to speak.
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Head gasket thickness fine tunes the compression ratio. You should really know what you are using so you know where your true CR is.

At this point, I would take whatever your macinist says as a grain of salt. If he had any sense he wouldn't just say these are better than the Felpro's and hand them to you, he would explain WTH he just gave you.....:wack:
 
Mad Dart said:
Is there a reason you are waiting to torque the heads? I always finish them up right then making sure to do the proper sequence.
What gaskets are you using?
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Im with you on the all in one session thing.I also make sure the heads spend the night in the trunk of the car the night before i install them along with the torque wrench ,so that everything is all the same ambiant temp (all hardware ,bolts ,washers ,gaskets ,etc).I also make sure that i tighten the bolts in one smooth motion .I have seen many rachet little by little till they get the "click".I avoid it...
 
OldmanRick said:
"much" better then Felpro's.......interesting? I'm staying tuned and good luck tomorrow. Hate to see you have to go thru this.........Don't forget, with all this other stuff occuring, that you still have a cam that needs breaking in. :mrgreen:
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Believe me, I have not forgot about the cam. I just spoke with my buddy. The Cometic head gasket he gave me is the same exact thickness as the first one. We will be at 12:1 as planned.
 
My guess would be a bad sand casting of intake manifold, providing a water leak into intake runners when warmed up, Only fesable idea to get water into all 8 bores with no visable leaks. Can you block off water outlets to heads and thermostat opening and air test water jacket in intake for leaks ? might save more agrivation later .

Good luck ; Lon
 
just thinking here but you might want to pressure test the cooling system before you fire it up tomorrow after the heads are torqued down . do it with the spark plugs out so if its still leaking into the engine you know before it hydrolocks and causes expensive damage .
If you dont have a cooling system pressure tester last i checked they can be had at harbor freight for $35-$40 . much cheaper than destroyed engine parts imo .
 
Like Rick said you still have a cam to finish "breaking in ".My advise is to slather on sum more breakin lube before you put the intake back on.I take it the pushrods are already out ,so just pull the lifters back out of their bores (keep them in order though) and lube the cam lobes again as best you can while you turn the motor by hand ,and the lifter bottoms ,plus pour a bottle of Comp breakin additive all over the cam and lifters right before you set the intake in place.BTW ,im pulling for you that all goes well this time ...
 
HemiTM said:
The reason I am waiting on torquing them.....I am be patient and letting everything settle in so to speak.
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Sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense at all. Torque the studs to spec. Nothing is going to 'settle', move or do anything if you wait. Finish the job.

Pressure test the cooling system before you fire it, make sure you can feel water in the rad hoses. Bleed it at start up, make sure all the air is out of it.

Did you look closely at the intake and the rest of the coolant passages? Only way I can surmise you could have had coolant in both banks was if it was being pushed and pulled through the intake or by some other common passage between the heads. You should be looking for a cracked intake, blocked passage, mismatched gasket, bad water pump etc, something broke through or got stuck in a passage, etc.

Hard to believe that head bolts could cause your problem. Were they loose when you took it apart? Did you blow compressed air down the bolt holes? Pretty sure you would have observed significant compression loss and the engine would have barely ran at all if the head bolts were not providing enough clamping force, let alone overheating.
 
The suspense is killing me....I have to pee so bad, but don't want to leave the computer and miss the outcome.
 
The situation is not funny at all but it IS funny to think about all these gearheads mulling this over like dogs with a bone.

I guess I'm one of the dogs cause my brain keeps chewing on it even though in comparison to most of the guys here I know next to nothing.

Judging by the description of events, the leakage is no small little seep. He shut it down, not sure how much time went by, but not more than an hour I'm guessing and he's got full cylinders!

Like I said I know nothing. I just have a hard time imagining how improper clamping can allow that much flow unless the heads are flopping around loose. But a crack that opens up with heat or unsealed passage somewhere that leads to all cylinders, combined with a pressured up cooling system...

I guess I'll vote for water through the intake.
 
OK....I realize I am not making anyone happy by choosing to torque them at my own pace. But, I will finish them tomorrow.

As for the intake. It is a single plane M1. It only uses the front water passages. It was sealed very well. Intake gaskets looked great. Where would it crack at in order to get water to the intakes. No evidence of any damage at all.
 
Wouldn't a crack anywhere between water and an air passage allow the entire intake to fill with water?
 
HemiTM said:
OK....I realize I am not making anyone happy by choosing to torque them at my own pace. But, I will finish them tomorrow.

As for the intake. It is a single plane M1. It only uses the front water passages. It was sealed very well. Intake gaskets looked great. Where would it crack at in order to get water to the intakes. No evidence of any damage at all.
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Is this a new intake ,a swap meet score ,or what ? What im getting at if its used ,is it a known good intake ? My Victor works the same way with the only crossover being in the front ,but you could get lots of water from there in a hurry if its cracked or is a bad casting.When you pulled the carb off did you notice water or moisture in the plenum ? It would be a damn shame to relive this nightmare all over agian (if it were my skinned knuckles and $$) ,and i wouldnt chance using the intake again without checking it completley for a flaw ...
 
I'm with Crackedback,on the head gasket thickness.Cometics,any thicknness,can be ordered. Just a thought.
 
the water in the front of the M1 is a couple of inches away from the intake runners...and the thickness of the intake manifold between them is only what 1/2 inch...if there was a crack...it probably be visible to the naked eye ...and the water would drain into the lifter valley or be visible on the top of the intake ...
 
HemiTM said:
OK....I realize I am not making anyone happy by choosing to torque them at my own pace. But, I will finish them tomorrow.

As for the intake. It is a single plane M1. It only uses the front water passages. It was sealed very well. Intake gaskets looked great. Where would it crack at in order to get water to the intakes. No evidence of any damage at all.
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No one is saying it is or isn't cracked but the basic idea here is that there is likely a cooling source/passage that somehow is common between both heads. The most obvious culprits are the intake or the water pump.

Did you take the timing cover back off? There's those two passages on either side of the block right behind the water pump - what's in between - the water pump, right? (a common source feeding both banks) Is it a high flow type or have extra blades on the impeller? Are your pullies underdriven? Maybe a gasket is covering up the passages? Clutching at straws here.
 
Rob R said:
I've seen this on at least 1/2 doz engines...head studs are problem.
On small blocks the studs have to be trimed so the shank of the stud is flush and seated to the deck...
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Just re-read this one. If he's saying he's seen all cylinders fill up like that then I guess big flow can go past the gaskets.

As a novice I have no reputation at stake. I can speculate, change my position like a woman, and perhaps keep the real gearheads thinking. :D
 
rmchrgr said:
No one is saying it is or isn't cracked but the basic idea here is that there is likely a cooling source/passage that somehow is common between both heads. The most obvious culprits are the intake or the water pump.

Did you take the timing cover back off? There's those two passages on either side of the block right behind the water pump - what's in between - the water pump, right? (a common source feeding both banks) Is it a high flow type or have extra blades on the impeller? Are your pullies underdriven? Maybe a gasket is covering up the passages? Clutching at straws here.
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I agree with you on the timing cover water pump setup .It was one of the first things that came to mind when he originally said the oil was contaminated with water ,but when he said that the cylinders them selves had water on top of the pistons (so much so that it blew out the plug holes when he turned it over) it made me lean towards a leak from the intake.These small block Mopars have a real design flaw with the water passing through the timing cover IMO.I was real anal when i put the front of mine back together after the cam swap ,for that very reason.If it leaks the water goes right into the pan and you cant even see it leaking from the outside .One little pit on any surface near the port ,a gaskets misaligned ,and your done ...
 
what heads are on this engine? I still think theres somthing wrong with the heads....he has the same symptoms as I did when the machine shop bored to deep for the harden'd valve seats,and ruined my heads. I'd be looking very closely at the heads, and removing some valves to take a look. I'm not buying the head clamping issue....it would be leaking water down the outside of the block, I would think.
 
Ok so now we know they are cosmetics. What procedure if any was done to accept the gaskets. Some guys have trouble getting the cosmetics to seal if the block and head finish are not machined smooth as a baby's butt to accept them.

I totally disagree that he intake is cracked. As mentioned by a lot of guys already, the M1 only has the front water passage and it would leak into the lifter Valley filling the pan with water. You would have to do a really junky job installing/sealing the intake for it to leak. If the block and heads have both been milled you may have needed to have the intake milled to fit correctly.

Are you cleaning the head and deck surface good before installing the gaskets? No ARP lube on the surfaces? Even still if you didn't I don't believe all 8 cylinders would fill with water.

The water pump assembly would not fill the cylinders with water, pan yes, cylinders no.
 
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