Any HVAC tecs here Help please.

[Snake]

We are at our wits ends here.we have an lennox oil furnace with the tank out side.booth are 8 years old tank is full.Its been shutting down going to the lock out mode.We have a friend that is a oil furnace repair guy that has come over 4 times in the past 6 weeks to help.Thank god he does now charge us for the help.What he is saying is there is moisture in the oil got to be.What he is doing is pulling the nozzle out installing a new one and then we are good to go.Well Saturday morning furnace F^&K up .He comes does the same and this time puts a new oil filter in,fires up runs all day and last night.Got up this morning lock out again.Tank is full I even poured a liter of oil conditioner on fill up.How do we get rid of the water in the tank if that's the problem.please help.

 

[kman521]

I'm not an HVAC guy just to let you know.

Is your furnace a direct vent model?
Does it have electronic start or pilot light?
If it is a direct vent check the air filter and the vent pipe for restrictions.

 

[George R]

No HVAC tech, but if the tank is above ground, like yours is, the swings in temp this time of the year (and early in spring) can certainly create more condensation inside the tank. You may very well have removed the moisture with the additive, but more moisture could have been created since then. Regardless of what the envrio-weenies & save the planet ****-heads say, the best place for an oil reserve tank is in the ground as the temp is always very close tot he same, year round. Save the planet, but sacrifice quality of life, and spend a bunch of money doing it.
Second best location is in the house or other heated space like a garage.
If it was me, I would wrap the oil tank with an insulating blanket to try to stabilize the inside temps.

Good Luck, Snake.

George

 

[Snake]

I'm not an HVAC guy just to let you know.

Is your furnace a direct vent model?
Does it have electronic start or pilot light?
If it is a direct vent check the air filter and the vent pipe for restrictions.

Not sure what ya mean direct vent there are 2 pipes on the top of the tank.it is a electronic start.

 

[Snake]

Thanks George.

 

[Snake]

Well my Furnace guy just put another nozzle in and its working for now but for how long Lucky its like 10 Celsius today,he says next step may be to drain some oil out the tank to clear this up,I am loosing faith.This has been the worst week in my life,first the hot water tank started leaking,sump pump seized up,Cindy had a very bad diabetic reaction,and now the furnace again.I am a nerves wreck.

 

[kman521]

Not sure what ya mean direct vent there are 2 pipes on the top of the tank.it is a electronic start.

Direct vent uses plastic pipe for the exhaust.

I have a direct vent natural gas furnace which was in in my house when I bought it two years ago and I turned the fan speed down because it was too noisy.
After I did that the furnace would be running ok all day when it was not too cold outside but at night the programmable thermostat turned the temp down so in the morning when the furnace had to run for a long time to get it up to temp the furnace would shutdown and lock out until I reset the power.
It turns out there is a sensor which monitors the internal temp of the furnace and because I turned down the fan speed it was overheating.
I had to adjust the fan speed up a notch and it's been fine since.
When I was looking into it I discovered that a dirty air filter or a partly plugged exhaust vent would cause the furnace to shut down too.

My furnace has an electronic board with a led on it that flashes red when something is wrong and by counting the number of flashes flashes you get the error code. I have the manual for mine but if you know the make and model number of your furnace you can get those codes from the net.

If you don't have a direct vent furnace this will not help.

Good luck

 

[jw_german]

Havent worked in HVAC in several years, before joining the military,though I have stayed current through vocational schools, so I am by no means an expert, and I have very limited experience on oil furnaces. Not many people around my area have those. With that said, I think you should listen to Kman521 about checking the vents. As far as moisture, I dont think it is a problem caused by condensation forming due to temperature difference. You said this started about 6 weeks ago, not something that would have happened for the last 8 years. When the nozzles were pulled, were they clogged? Was the filter obviously really dirty? If it is moisture in the tank, I think you may have a leak into the tank, above the oil level, maybe the vent cap on the tank is loose or broken allowing more moisture to get into the tank. It may also be that you received bad oil, you say the oil is full, has it been only one fill up since this started? Was the tank still over half full when you topped it off? There are some tests for checking for water in the oil. Also, the burner fuel pump and screen should be checked, either could cause the unit to lockout. One last thing that I can think of to check, I am not sure what type of sensing unit that furnace has, it may be either a thermocouple or a cad cell. They both do pretty much the same thing, change resistance. The thermocouple operates off of heat from the pilot, the cad cell "sees" the light of the flame. You will only have one or the other, probably the thermocouple, I am not to sure when they started putting cad cells in them. If that is going bad, it will put the unit into lockout as well, and could be an intermittent issue. Like I said, Im no expert, I hope you are able to get this resolved.

 

[Dodge33]

Hello Snake....... I'm no tech guy, but George is right on alot of stuff he is telling you. It is highly possible that the fuel oil has alot of moisture in the tank, and I know around here where we live, the oil delivery man carry's some kind of ( I think it's like paste or something) and you put it on a stick or wood spindle and dip it in the tank, and I believe it turn's a certain color, which tell's them how much moisture is in the tank. Now...... it's another story if you can get your oil person to tell you the truth or not on how much is in there. Maybe your repair man can get ahold of this paste, I don't know. Have your furnace repair man pull unit out and take a good look at the electrodes that arc across to each other, and check each wire connection to each electrode. Maybe you have a bad electrode too, and also check the distance between the two electrode's, and also check the distance from the end of the nozzle to the electrode's, as this does matter when ignition come's on to ignite fuel oil. I moved my tank in my house garage year's ago, made every difference in the world. I don't even use it any more because we have a Central Wood Boiler and that heat's house and all the shop's......... it's nice, but you better have alot of firewood to burn. Good Luck Snake. I'll try to watch this thread today and maybe offer a little more info. NOTE: I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S LEGAL OR WHATEVER BUT I INSTALLED A 5/16 INCH SOLID METAL GAS FILTER ON MINE WHERE THE LINE COME'S UP THE WALL, AND I NEVER HAD ANY MORE PROBLEM'S WITH ANY DIRT OR GRIT GETTING TO THE PUMP AND INTO THE NOZZLE!!!!!!! Dodge33

 

[Snake]

Just dont know what to do you all are very helpful,this is not the direct vent type oil furnace,thing is all he does is polls the nozzle out drain what fluid is in the tube installs a new nozzle hits the reset button and works fine.Its seams like if the heat is off for say 6 hours and when she goes to fire up locks out,not all the time.

 

[ram250098]

Snake I am a sheet metal worker that has a bit of experiance with HVAC and I have an oil tank as well. The BIG difference is mine is "inside" and wouldn't have it any other way. I have some friends that have the tank outside had have run into problems like yours...what they do is put a 100 watt light bulb in a box overtop of the oil filter {if yours is outside as well} and leave it on for a few hours.
My tank and furnace is 18 years old and still look like new..a benefit to having it inside.
AL

 

[67Dart273]

IF MOISTURE in in the tank is the problem, you need to do whatever it takes to resolve it.

First, two lines out of the top of the tank, indicates this is the type of pump setup with a return line. THAT IS GOOD because it is easier to prime the pump (mostly "self priming")

GENERALLY these type tube connections use what amounts to a compression fitting such as you would use in an icemaker water connection, except that the fitting has been "drilled through" so that you can simply drop the line to the bottom of the tank right through the fitting, and then tighten it up.

I WOULD INVESTIGATE whether the line(s) are TOO CLOSE to the bottom of the tank. Do what you need to pull the lines out. You probably will have to cut the lines about a foot or more out of the tank, and buy two compression unions (probably 3/8?) to reconnect the tubes.

Use something to measure the tank depth, and bend the tubes so they are 2-3" off the bottom OR MORE.

(READ ON but for now, if you can NOT clean the tank as per below, pull these lines up from the bottom a foot or more until you can clean the tank)

Examine the fittings on the tank--the filler, the gauge, and the line connections. If the tank is under the eaves of a house, especially, examine the tank fittings to see if there is any way that rain/ snow can get into the tank

NEXT make sure there is a method to drain the VERY BOTTOM of the tank. The tank should be pitched slightly towards whatever is there for a plug/ valve/ drain. If there is no valve and cap there now, so you can drain the "sump," PLAN to drain the tank, say, in the summer, and install one.

For now, if there is no drain, remove the fill plug/ cap, and get some hose/ tubing and some container so that you can insert a tube clear to the bottom, and siphon some out. A good way to do this is to buy some 3/8 or 1/2 tube so that you have a rigid probe to get to the bottom of the tank, and get some of that cheap clear plastic hose so that you can see the water/ dirt/ oil and the flow. Get yourself one of those siphon starter pumps, at any auto parts store.

Now simply siphon until it's clear.

To purge the fuel system, after you have siphoned the tank bottom, disconnect your new union at the return line at the tank--you'll have to follow this line from the filter to determine which one. The filter will be in the SUCTION line, but you want the RETURN line

So disconnect your new union at the return, at the tank, and have someone down at the switch at the furnace. Run the return into a bucket until it's clear, then change the filter and nozzle what you hope to be ONE last time.

Depending on what kind of pump you have, there PROBABLY is a filter IN THE PUMP. This needs to be serviced, preferably by someone who knows how.

Oil furnace nozzles are incredibly small, and you MUST have ABSOLUTELY clean oil

 

[4spdragtop]

Snake no offense to your buddy here, as he has helped you out, but seems to me this is like taking your car to a mech and all he does is change the spark plugs and not doing any diagnosing. Talk to your fuel supplier to see if they have any ideas? Obviously they want your furnace working properly so you can burn their fuel.Is the element where the burner is clean, they quite often build up with soot in the combustion chamber. Also if there is moisture in the tank, I would check the fill cap and make sure its sealing properly. Check the filter, is it a sediment filter, or is it a water seperator? Sorry no expert here, but I have lived in a house that had an oil furnace, and as simple as they are, they can be frustrating. Good luck!

 

[Snake]

Snake no offense to your buddy here, as he has helped you out, but seems to me this is like taking your car to a mech and all he does is change the spark plugs and not doing any diagnosing. Talk to your fuel supplier to see if they have any ideas? Obviously they want your furnace working properly so you can burn their fuel.Is the element where the burner is clean, they quite often build up with soot in the combustion chamber. Also if there is moisture in the tank, I would check the fill cap and make sure its sealing properly. Check the filter, is it a sediment filter, or is it a water seperator? Sorry no expert here, but I have lived in a house that had an oil furnace, and as simple as they are, they can be frustrating. Good luck!

My buddy works for the oil company that we get the oil from,he pull the nozzel out and the whole unit is very clean and say she is burn in clean,he thinks moisture is the problem,also replaced the filter yesterday,however a great member here just told me over the phone there is another secondary filter to change witch has never been done.Thinks that could be the issue.

 

[4spdragtop]

My buddy works for the oil company that we get the oil from,he pull the nozzel out and the whole unit is very clean and say she is burn in clean,he thinks moisture is the problem,also replaced the filter yesterday,however a great member here just told me over the phone there is another secondary filter to change witch has never been done.Thinks that could be the issue.

Hope the secondary filter is the problem!!

 

[67Dart273]

another secondary filter to change witch has never been done..

If you read my post I mentioned that. There is normally one right in the pump, depending on the pump model. Newer pumps may not have one in the pump

It is IMPERITIVE that you do what you must to clean the fuel

 

[Snake]

If you read my post I mentioned that. There is normally one right in the pump, depending on the pump model. Newer pumps may not have one in the pump

It is IMPERITIVE that you do what you must to clean the fuel

I now know about that outer filter,my buddy says lets hope it fine now,if not he plans on draining some oil from the tank to see if that will help,I sure hope he is willing to check that outher filter that is behind the fuel pump.So far all the service call are free because he is also a car guy,but if he cant fixt this very soon I may have to hire out and be out 600 bucksssssss or so.

 

[67Dart273]

be out 600 bucksssssss or so.

I've been "out" for over 15 years now. Back then your 600 might've been more like 200 for this kind of thing.

That bad news is that if you don't mitigate it completely, you'll always have a fight on your hand.

IF NOTHING ELSE pull the tubes way up off the bottom of the tank for now, even a foot or more, until you can deal with the goop in the bottom.

 

[Snake]

I've been "out" for over 15 years now. Back then your 600 might've been more like 200 for this kind of thing.

That bad news is that if you don't mitigate it completely, you'll always have a fight on your hand.

IF NOTHING ELSE pull the tubes way up off the bottom of the tank for now, even a foot or more, until you can deal with the goop in the bottom.

Sorry I dont understand the tubes your talking about.At the tank there are the vent and fill tub at the top of the tank at the bottom there is just the feed line thats going into the house, were are these 2 tubes to pull up on? if I take the caps off all I see is oil.right now its firing up fine all day and running .But I still have lost confidence in the dam thing,as soon as I can scrounge up the money, loan of maybe have to sell the Dart I am going to gas,bummer is they the gas company will not dig now to cold,but we could convert over to propane for now.Winter has like 20 weeks to go.rayer:

 

[67Dart273]

OK, I misunderstood you. IN your first post you mentioned "2 pipes on the top of the tank" and I thought you were talking about the feed line

So you are saying there is only ONE tube going to the house, and that it exits the bottom of the tank?

If so, this is a little more difficult.

Can you tell is the tank tilted AWAY from the feed outlet? IN other words, the tank bottom is "low" on the opposite side from the feed line? This would provide some "sump" for water to collect.

If I was in your situation, I would remove something from the top of the tank, such as the vent, and put a TEE in the top, run the vent out the side of the tee. Then, through the top, put a suction line to temporarily replace your feedline. MAKE SURE this pickup tube from the top is 6" or more from the bottom, because the water and dirt is all at the bottom.

Alternatively, if you can jack and block the tank, jig it up so the feed end is higher than the other end, again, this will provide a "sump" for the water to collect in the other end.

RE-read my post earlier, you should be able to stick a tube down the filler and siphon the water out of the bottom.

I HATED working on oil. I worked on heat pumps, gas and L/P, A/C and refrigeration. Oil was my least favorite thing to do, incuding one "puffback" that turned me into Al Jolson.

 

[Snake]

Thanks 67Dart273,I just took a look and the tank does lean more to the feed line,should I turn the legs in at the outher end to lower it some.

 

[67Dart273]

Thanks 67Dart273,I just took a look and the tank does lean more to the feed line,should I turn the legs in at the outher end to lower it some.

Use your judgement, and don't get hurt, and I don't know how full or large your tank is. I'd try and jack it up and put some bricks or some of those 2" pavers or even a 2x4 under the feed side legs. It would not hurt to jack it up 4" because you are haveing trouble.

I DEFINATELY would figure a way to get around this problem in the future. On my old tank, there was a bottom drain, which I put a capped valve in, to control draining sludge/ water right at the bottom.

For the feed, there was an outlet on the side near the bottom. I brazed a tube into the inner side of the fitting, so that when screwed in, the tube bent up a little to get the pickup about 2-3" off the bottom. I had no more trouble after that. With a bottom drain valve, capped for safety,, I could drain water/ sludge out the bottom no matter how much was in the tank.

 

[Snake]

Ok thanks again.

 

[beezee]

Snake, Confirm water or dirt in the oil.Turn valve off at tank and run some oil off into a jar,water and contaminants will settle to the bottom,you will see it .You have a gravity feed single pipe system and pump should always have oil .Do you notice any unusual noises as growling when running would indicate oil starving or air entering fuel lines, bad pump seal or cracked fitting .Oil pressure to nozzle checked? Flame photo cell properly aimed to sight flame.
Any ignition delay or puff,s on start? If you suspect water does the conditioner contain methyl hydrate or gas line antifreeze which will prevent water freezing in the fuel lines.

 

[Snake]

Snake, Confirm water or dirt in the oil.Turn valve off at tank and run some oil off into a jar,water and contaminants will settle to the bottom,you will see it .You have a gravity feed single pipe system and pump should always have oil .Do you notice any unusual noises as growling when running would indicate oil starving or air entering fuel lines, bad pump seal or cracked fitting .Oil pressure to nozzle checked? Flame photo cell properly aimed to sight flame.
Any ignition delay or puff,s on start? If you suspect water does the conditioner contain methyl hydrate or gas line antifreeze which will prevent water freezing in the fuel lines.

My guy yesterday drained some oil in a small butter container and said ya there is water in there as for dirt look clean..2 weeks ago i put some oil conditioner in it for the water problem ,yes it has all the stuff needed to keep it from freezing. Thing is when its working it runssss like a champ.