anyone ever get a headlight ticket?

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I have not, however, having said that, LED bulbs transplanted into halogen headlamps is a dumb idea anyway. Halogen headlamp housings are designed to disperse halogen bulb light, not LED. All they do with LED bulbs is scatter the light about as crappily as possible and a lot of times, that's right in the faces of oncoming traffic, so it's dangerous as well as dumb.
 
I don't think lower than 24" would be a big issue as long as you are close to that. But LED bulbs in a halogen housing is a bad idea. You will have a ton of super bright light out to about 50 feet, and then nothing. It won't be focused, and you will be able to out drive the lights, along with blinding oncoming traffic. Similar to all the Chevy guys in my area that put HID light conversions in their halogen housing and it's like staring at the sun when they are coming towards you.

Take a look at RetroShop Custom Lighting or Welcome to the store for lights that might work. They have LED housings that might work if you are going custom anyway.
 
I only replaced the high beam lights in my 2017 Nissan Titan, so I wouldn't blind any on coming drivers.
If it came with halogens, the housing lenses are not jeweled properly for the LED bulbs, so it's still not a great idea. There are some good upgrades on the market for halogen bulbs.
 
I don't think lower than 24" would be a big issue as long as you are close to that. But LED bulbs in a halogen housing is a bad idea. You will have a ton of super bright light out to about 50 feet, and then nothing. It won't be focused, and you will be able to out drive the lights, along with blinding oncoming traffic. Similar to all the Chevy guys in my area that put HID light conversions in their haolgen housing and it's like staring at the sun when they are coming towards you.
What he said ^^^^^^^
 
Well, I worked with Osram for designing HID lighting for new vehicles, so I am not too sure about halogen upgrades, but I would say the best bang for the buck would probably be Sylvania Silverstars, if they still make them. They don't last as long as a regular bulb, but they put out a good amount of light.
 
the best bang for the buck would probably be Sylvania Silverstars
Nope, gotta disagree.

Any of the bulbs claiming to produce "extra white" light (or super white, hyper white, platinum white, metal white, xenon white, etc) as its main promotional "benefit" is best avoided. It doesn't matter whose name is on the bulb—Sylvania SilverStar/Ultra or ZxE, Philips BlueVision or CrystalVision, Wagner TruView, anything from PIAA or Hoen,, Nokya, Polarg, etc.—all the same scam. They have a blue-tinted glass, which changes the light color a little, but blocks light that would reach the road if the glass weren't tinted, so they give you less light than ordinary bulbs (not more). To get legal-minimum levels of light through the blue glass, the filament has to be driven very hard so these bulbs have a very short lifespan, and there's nothing about the tinted light that improves your ability to see—the opposite is true (less light = less seeing, no matter about the tint). Sylvania got spanked to the tune of thirty million(!) dollars for false and misleading "upgrade" claims for Silver Star bulbs (see here )—and they are among the least-bad of an overall bad product category, so the math kind of does itself.
 
LED headlights retrofitted into Halogen equipped cars is technically illegal.

For damn good reasons. They're flatly unsafe.

Halogen lamps need to use halogen bulbs. The "LED bulbs" now flooding the market, claiming to convert halogen headlamps to LED, are not a legitimate, safe, effective, or legal product. No matter whose name is on them or what the vendor claims, these are a fraudulent scam. They are not capable of producing the right amounts of light, nor producing it in the right pattern for the lamp's optics to work.

This is not like trying out different bulbs in the kitchen or living room or garage, where all it has to do is light up in a way we find adequate and pleasing. Headlamps aren't just flood or spot lights; even the cheapest, most minimal headlamp is a precision optical instrument. They have a complex, difficult job to do in terms of simultaneously putting light where it's needed, keeping it away from where it's harmful, and controlling the amounts of light at numerous locations within the beam to appropriate levels (too much light in certain areas is just as dangerous as not enough). Headlamps cannot just spray out a random blob of light, and that's what they do with anything other than the intended correct kind of light source.


But has anyone ever gotten a fix it ticket for using them

Car lights are life-safety devices. Too many people treat them as fashion toys and weapons and dick-substitutes. "HID kits", "LED bulbs", misaimed lamps, light bars in traffic, black tint on lights, skeezy Chinese lite-shaped trinkets in place of real working lamps, etc. Not nearly enough tickets are written for it.

(My car's lights are kept in good condition. Not necessarily perfect, because work doesn't do itself/groceries aren't free/parts cost money/the garbage don't take itself out/sleep is necessary. But overall mine tend to work better than average for the kind of car I'm driving, in ways that let me see better but without creating safety hazards/glare for others, because thizz what I do. All that said, if I ever get a faulty-lights ticket I'm going to frame it and put it on my wall because LOL)

Just about every article written about this gets it wrong. "Oh, yay, we're about to get the adaptive-beam headlamps they've had in Europe for a decade, hooray!" That would be nice, because the damn things work, but that's not what's actually happening.

ADB = adaptive driving beam (sometimes called glare-free high beam) is a camera-driven system which detects and keeps track of the presence and position of other traffic participants and dynamically shadows them out of what is otherwise a high-beam light pattern. Theoretically (and practically, outside the United States) it is a long-needed resolution to the century-old headlighting conflict between seeing and glare; it provides high-beam seeing with low-beam glare—but the U.S. standard deliberately, artificially retains the constraints inherent to fixed, nonadaptive high/low beam headlighting systems. Low beams are flatly inadequate to the task we ask of them (and so pedestrians die at night), but high beams are too glaring to use when others are around. The whole point of ADB is to finally resolve that conflict by making those constraints obsolete, and yet here comes NHTSA (the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the agency that sets US motor vehicle safety standards) to preserve those constraints, on purpose, after an indefensible amount of delay. This can only be called regulatory malpractice.

Years ago, NHTSA asked the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) Lighting Systems Group to translate the rest-of-world ADB technical standard into terms compatible with the US legal system and regulatory framework. The SAE LSG did a highly outstanding job of that, in record time. Then NHTSA sat on it for years before rejecting it for reasons that do not withstand informed technical scrutiny, and instead releasing their own severely problematic technical standard as a proposal. Everyone howled in protest, which is a hell of a thing—parties often in conflict (automakers, suppliers, insurance industry, safety researchers, consumer watchdogs, etc) were all on the same side this time; there were no conflicting interests for NHTSA to have to resolve. All they had to do was say yes. They failed to do so, just kept dragging their feet.

Then last year ('22), the U.S. Congress passed the Infrastructure Act, which contained blackletter language ordering NHTSA to allow ADB in accord with SAE J3069. NHTSA disobeyed this direct order and adopted their own standard, which they justified by claiming it is 'more stringent' and thus better than the SAE standard, and therefore, they say, their action complies with the intent of the congressional directive.

But the NHTSA standard is _not_ more stringent (which would mean it requires better performance in one or more ways), it's more _restrictive_ (which means it imposes constraints and requirements on system design and performance without concommitant safety benefit) . So much so that it kicks the legs out from under ADB. It requires a more costly, less performant system than is allowed everywhere else in the world. It amounts to "Sure, go ahead and put ADB on your cars, as long as it's not ADB". A system designed to the US ADB standard—if such a system can be devised without violating other requirements of the US lighting standard, which is not at all clear—cannot provide much (if any) of the benefit ADB was devised to provide. To give one example of how poorly conceived the NHTSA rule is, there are such conflicts between the ADB requirements and the static/fixed low beam requirements (all of which must be met by an ADB-capable headlamp) that the current consensus among automakers and headlamp manufacturers is that technically extreme solutions would be needed to comply with both, such as installing a little motor on each headlamp to tip the headlamp aim down during certain vehicle operation conditions, such as certain steering wheel angles, to eliminate the conflict. This is an enormous amount of cost and complexity to add to a headlamp, just to comply with a faulty requirement, and with absolutely zero safety benefit.

And all of this while the rest-of-world UN standard has been working beautifully, preventing crashes and saving lives and making night driving a whole hell of a lot easier and more pleasant, without creating new problems, for years in…erm…the rest of the world.

Even in Canada, where regulations are generally kept nearly identical to the US rules because of the deep integration of the two countries' auto markets and manufacturing sectors. Transport Canada, eager to unlock for Canadian motorists the significant safety benefits offered by ADB, grew tired of NHTSA's foot-dragging and legalized both the SAE and the rest-of-world UN ADB standards in 2019.

Im trying to make a custom grill and they are going to be lower than 24"

Vehicle owners are not regulated parties under the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards—vehicles in service, and their owners, are handled by state-level regulations. Some states' vehicle lighting codes basically say "Car lights on vehicles registered in this state must conform to the federal standard", but other states have their own homebrewed (usually up in the hills in a still made of old radiators and bathtubs) lighting codes, many poorly written in the 1930s-'40s and not updated since then. So as the saying goes, Check your local laws before blahbitty blah blah.

California's vehicle equipment code states A motor vehicle, other than a motorcycle, shall be equipped with at least two headlamps, with at least one on each side of the front of the vehicle […] located directly above or in advance of the front axle of the vehicle. The headlamps and every light source in any headlamp unit shall be located at a height of not more than 54 inches nor less than 22 inches.

Okeh, so not less than 22 inches. To…what? The lower edge of the headlamp? The optical centre of the headlamp? Could make a sturdy argument in favour of either, but the stronger argument is that the 22-inch figure applies to the optical centre of the headlamp, because that's where the light source is located. Which would place the lower edge of the headlamp lower than 22 inches, now, wouldn't it? Suppose you're using a 7-inch round headlamp, either a sealed beam or something that actually lets you see where you're going. The light source (bulb) is smack in the middle. The radius of a ø7" circle is 3.5", so if you put the light source right at 22 inches off the ground, the lower edge of the headlamp is going to be 18.5" off the ground.

But which is the correct argument? Neither. Either. Both. The statute is ambiguous.
 
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<~~~~~~~ Got a ticket for installing Cibies in his 4x4 Yota long ago. At that time the Cibies were 49 state legal. of course Ca was the lone holdout on that list. To make matters worse it was his father that was driving the truck at the time. Needless to say their next encounter was not pleasant. :rofl:
 
Even in Canada, where regulations are generally kept nearly identical to the US rules because of the deep integration of the two countries' auto markets and manufacturing sectors. Transport Canada, eager to unlock for Canadian motorists the significant safety benefits offered by ADB, grew tired of NHTSA's foot-dragging and legalized both the SAE and the rest-of-world UN ADB standards in 2019.
That's incredible. I can't think of much that's different between US spec and Canada spec cars. A km/h speedometer and DRLs are the only things that come to mind.

Dan, what are your thoughts on DRLs? Do they add any safety overall?
 
Yes, DRLs—legitimate ones, configured appropriately for automatic operation—significantly reduce your risk of being in a crash during the daytime, and are required equipment in Canada, throughout Europe, and in a large and growing number of other countries throughout the world because they are a very cost-effective safety device (i.e., they work). The safety benefit from thoughtfully-done DRLs is real, but some implementations of DRLs introduce safety-negative effects that can cancel or, in extreme cases, reverse the safety benefit.

Most arguments against DRLs, whether or not their exponents realise (or admit) it, are arguments against
the problems caused by particular implementations of DRLs, not against the concept itself. And unfortunately there are a lot of bad kinds of DRL allowed in North America. Example: here's a photo of one of the original factory-installed 9005 high beam bulbs I removed last week from a 2014 car I bought last month (~69k miles). As on many vehicles in Canada + USA, the high beams are operated at 50% rated voltage to provide 10% rated light output for the daytime running light function:

_____DRL_8414.jpg


The underdriven bulbs don't get hot enough for the halogen cycle to occur—by which tungsten boilt off the filament is scavenged off the bulb wall and re-plated onto the filament—so unless the full-power high beams are periodically used for long enough to clean up the bulb, the tungsten accumulates on the bulb wall, at first forming a red-brown stain and eventually blackening it. This makes the glass absorb more heat, and by and by it begins to melt and a blister is blown by the bulb's internal pressure of several atmospheres. Meanwhile, output drops enormously because black opaque stuff in the way. But the lamps keep on lighting up (after a fashion…good luck seeing anything; lookit that shadow on my kitchen table!)

More babble on the topic if anyone wants it, but in case not, I shaddup now.
 
<~~~~~~~ Got a ticket for installing Cibies in his 4x4 Yota long ago. At that time the Cibies were 49 state legal. of course Ca was the lone holdout on that list.
Something's the matter with this sequence of events: there has never been a 49-state-legal Cibie headlamp. There were Cibie European-code headlamps which didn't meet the Federal standard (because the US was and is the only country in the world not to allow or permit vehicles and equipment meeting the international "European" (U.N.) safety standards) and so were illegal to import to the USA, and were illegal for a vehicle owner to install on a car registered in a state with an (enforced) equipment code requiring lights meeting the US federal standard. There were also Cibie DOT-certified headlamps (see ad below) which did meet the US standard and were therefore 50-state legal, because if a regulated item of vehicle equipment meets the federal standard, any state code that would call it illegal is null and void; the item is allowed in every state no matter what that state's codes might say, and it's always been that way.

Probably what happened was this truck had the European-code headlamps during California's enforcement tantrum. What happened was the California Highway Patrol tried out Cibie and Marchal European-type headlamps, liked them better than sealed beams, and wrote to NHTSA saying "The way we read the law, state-owned vehicles do not have to meet Federal standards, which would mean we can use these foreign-spec headlamps, right?" NHTSA wrote back and said "Yep, that's right, and we'd be interested in knowing your experience after a time". Then a little while later, NHTSA went "PSYCH! Get 'em off your vehicles. We've instructed US Customs to keep a close eye on this, and any attempt to import foreign-spec headlamps will be met by their seizure and destruction". That pissed off the CHP, whose officers tended to take an If I can't have them, then you can't either attitude to enforcement.


Bobi.jpg
 
Something's the matter with this sequence of events: there has never been a 49-state-legal Cibie headlamp. There were Cibie European-code headlamps which didn't meet the Federal standard (because the US was and is the only country in the world not to allow or permit vehicles and equipment meeting the international "European" (U.N.) safety standards) and so were illegal to import to the USA, and were illegal for a vehicle owner to install on a car registered in a state with an (enforced) equipment code requiring lights meeting the US federal standard. There were also Cibie DOT-certified headlamps (see ad below) which did meet the US standard and were therefore 50-state legal, because if a regulated item of vehicle equipment meets the federal standard, any state code that would call it illegal is null and void; the item is allowed in every state no matter what that state's codes might say, and it's always been that way.

Probably what happened was this truck had the European-code headlamps during California's enforcement tantrum. What happened was the California Highway Patrol tried out Cibie and Marchal European-type headlamps, liked them better than sealed beams, and wrote to NHTSA saying "The way we read the law, state-owned vehicles do not have to meet Federal standards, which would mean we can use these foreign-spec headlamps, right?" NHTSA wrote back and said "Yep, that's right, and we'd be interested in knowing your experience after a time". Then a little while later, NHTSA went "PSYCH! Get 'em off your vehicles. We've instructed US Customs to keep a close eye on this, and any attempt to import foreign-spec headlamps will be met by their seizure and destruction". That pissed off the CHP, whose officers tended to take an If I can't have them, then you can't either attitude to enforcement.


View attachment 1716061660
I've always thought the fact that the E codes are illegal in the US was pretty stupid. Since the low beams have such a sharp cutoff, plus they "wedge" into the RIGHT side of the road (read OUT of the eyes of oncoming traffic), they were perfect for the US. Makes no sense.
 
I've always thought the fact that the E codes are illegal in the US was pretty stupid. Since the low beams have such a sharp cutoff, plus they "wedge" into the RIGHT side of the road (read OUT of the eyes of oncoming traffic), they were perfect for the US. Makes no sense.
Yes, there are "E-code" headlamps made for right-side traffic. The US is the only country where they're not allowed. You're right, that's pretty damn dumb, but the US inherited a we're-right-and-the-whole-stupid-rest-of-the-world-is-wrong streak from England (and just look how well that's been workin' out for the Brits lately).

It's not so much a matter of the shape of the cutoff—there are DOT-certified (US-spec) headlamps with that same cutoff shape. What matters more is the light distribution within the beam (under the cutoff). The rest-of-world spec allows much weaker low beams and much stronger high beams than the US spec, though both standards have room for good lamps.

It's still ridiculous to ban headlamps considered adequate in countries with much better safety stats than the US, including just about every Western European country plus countries with US-type traffic systems (they're allowed in Canada where the roadway geometries, sign placements, etc are virtually identical to US practice).

It's especially ridiculous because despite a mountain of high-quality research, nobody's ever found a real, actual safety difference between US and rest-of-world low beams. And that's what matters, yet wonks and geeks get in decades-long, knock-down-drag-'em-out squabbles over the particulars of picky details in this versus that standard.

Two things explain this:

1. The reason why nobody's ever found a categorical benefit to our headlamps versus their headlamps or vice versa, despite all the theoretical bickering, is because low beams are inherently inadequate for the task we ask of them. US-spec, UN-spec, halogen, Xenon, LED, projector, reflector—all of them. They are not capable of providing the driver with enough preview at night to avoid an obstacle at normal road speeds. Some are more inadequate than others, and some can be made less inadequate, but to one or another degree we all outdrive our low beams. The only reason there's not more blood and twisted metal on the highway about it is because there's enough traffic density that we usually benefit from the extended coverage provided by the lights of the cars in front of us. But when that's not present, inadequate seeing makes the nighttime traffic fatality rate (overwhelmingly pedestrians) way higher than daytime, even with fatigue and impairment factored out. This is why it is such massive regulatory malpractice for NHTSA to have screwed up ADB/Adaptive Driving Beam, which finally, after a century, unhandcuffs drivers (outside the US) from the inadequacy of low beams without glaring other drivers. This isn't just a playtoy for the wealthy.

2. Automakers are two-faced about this. They whine about having to spend money to design different lights, bumpers, mirrors, seatbelts, etc, but out the other side of their mouth they (very) actively work to maintain the US different-but-not-better regs, because it allows them to keep control of what vehicles do and don't enter the US market, and at what prices.

Adopting the rest-of-world standard would not necessarily make everything peachy; there are about as many shortcomings and flaws in the rest-of-world standard as there are in the US standard, it's just a different mix. It would take a team of perhaps five or ten experts a few months to devise a single standard for every aspect of every light on a vehicle, combining the best and eliminating the worst of both the US and rest-of-world standards. I headed up such an effort for lighting system installation (which lights have to be present, what colour, mounted where, hooked up how) in the SAE group some years ago, and it exists as a "recommended practice" technical standard. An automaker following this standard could configure a lighting system acceptable throughout the world. As far as I know, nobody has ever used it. The automakers do not (really) want this.
 
Yes, there are "E-code" headlamps made for right-side traffic. The US is the only country where they're not allowed. You're right, that's pretty damn dumb, but the US inherited a we're-right-and-the-whole-stupid-rest-of-the-world-is-wrong streak from England (and just look how well that's been workin' out for the Brits lately).

It's not so much a matter of the shape of the cutoff—there are DOT-certified (US-spec) headlamps with that same cutoff shape. What matters more is the light distribution within the beam (under the cutoff). The rest-of-world spec allows much weaker low beams and much stronger high beams than the US spec, though both standards have room for good lamps.

It's still ridiculous to ban headlamps considered adequate in countries with much better safety stats than the US, including just about every Western European country plus countries with US-type traffic systems (they're allowed in Canada where the roadway geometries, sign placements, etc are virtually identical to US practice).

It's especially ridiculous because despite a mountain of high-quality research, nobody's ever found a real, actual safety difference between US and rest-of-world low beams. And that's what matters, yet wonks and geeks get in decades-long, knock-down-drag-'em-out squabbles over the particulars of picky details in this versus that standard.

Two things explain this:

1. The reason why nobody's ever found a categorical benefit to our headlamps versus their headlamps or vice versa, despite all the theoretical bickering, is because low beams are inherently inadequate for the task we ask of them. US-spec, UN-spec, halogen, Xenon, LED, projector, reflector—all of them. They are not capable of providing the driver with enough preview at night to avoid an obstacle at normal road speeds. Some are more inadequate than others, and some can be made less inadequate, but to one or another degree we all outdrive our low beams. The only reason there's not more blood and twisted metal on the highway about it is because there's enough traffic density that we usually benefit from the extended coverage provided by the lights of the cars in front of us. But when that's not present, inadequate seeing makes the nighttime traffic fatality rate (overwhelmingly pedestrians) way higher than daytime, even with fatigue and impairment factored out. This is why it is such massive regulatory malpractice for NHTSA to have screwed up ADB/Adaptive Driving Beam, which finally, after a century, unhandcuffs drivers (outside the US) from the inadequacy of low beams without glaring other drivers. This isn't just a playtoy for the wealthy.

2. Automakers are two-faced about this. They whine about having to spend money to design different lights, bumpers, mirrors, seatbelts, etc, but out the other side of their mouth they (very) actively work to maintain the US different-but-not-better regs, because it allows them to keep control of what vehicles do and don't enter the US market, and at what prices.

Adopting the rest-of-world standard would not necessarily make everything peachy; there are about as many shortcomings and flaws in the rest-of-world standard as there are in the US standard, it's just a different mix. It would take a team of perhaps five or ten experts a few months to devise a single standard for every aspect of every light on a vehicle, combining the best and eliminating the worst of both the US and rest-of-world standards. I headed up such an effort for lighting system installation (which lights have to be present, what colour, mounted where, hooked up how) in the SAE group some years ago, and it exists as a "recommended practice" technical standard. An automaker following this standard could configure a lighting system acceptable throughout the world. As far as I know, nobody has ever used it. The automakers do not (really) want this.
All I can say is, I am very happy with my H4 Cibie conversions in both my Ford truck and my Valiant, Vixen. They work very well. I need to get Kitty's Escape improved next, but the budget is not quite ready for it.
 
Yup, if the options are sealed beams or good(!) H4s, the H4s are usually the better pick. If it's between sealed beams and lousy H4s (there are a lot of lousy H4s), the better pick is don't drive at night.
 
Whoa now...who said anything about putting LED bulbs in Halogen fixtures? NOT ME! Please guys, read the question twice if needed. Bunk info is worse than no info. LED headlights are not bulbs, they are the entire bolt in assembly, as square or round as the Wagner sealed beam that its replacing. I am more interested in the enforced legality of these headlights and the DOT height requirement.
 
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